The Saga Of The Veil, Continued

[LazyGun]

Further to AoGs recent post on wearing the Niqab at Birmingham Metropolitan University
(thread here)

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/News/Question1274865.html

and another thread on the Muslim woman ordered by the judge to remove her veil, which I believe had a thread here also, although I cannot find it - it now appears that Birmingham Metropolitan University have now reversed themselves and will allow personal items of religious significance after all. Is this a humiliating climbdown, as described, or a sensible response to a protest against what some might have described as a draconian measure?

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/birmingham-metropolitan-college-drops-controversial-5921560

In that Birmingham Mail article, it also goes on to say that the judge who ordered the woman to remove her veil has also reversed himself and relented. This was also covered in the Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/12/judge-allows-muslim-woman-wear-niqab

Again, sensible response or cowardly climbdown?

[Zeuhl]

andy

we still haven't seen your response to this:

/so can you answer NJ's similar point earlier?

would you be comfortable attending a Court where the Judge, Prosecutor and Jury were all wearing hoods and masks? /

[anotheoldgit]

andy-hughes

/// We do not 'own' this country, we are fortunate and privelidged enough to be able to live in it, and enjoy irs freedoms, and I don't believe any of us as undividuals is entitled to deny others the rights and freedoms that we enjoy - and certainly not the self-appointed 'guardians' of our culture, the EDL. ///

Oh dear how many time have you come up with this false reasoning.

I don't know about you but I think I have more right to this country, than others who have chosen to accept our generous hospitality, after all it is by the sheer continuous toil by my and other's ancestors over the centuries plus their cash injections thus making this country what it is today.

Incidentally what would your be your feelings be so tolerant, if some chose to walk around in Klu-Klux Clan gear?

[naomi24]

Andy Hughes, //this is not a ridiculous mode of dress//

The only place this mode of dress is not ridiculous is in the desert in the midst of a sand storm – when it becomes very practical.

//I don't believe any of us as undividuals is entitled to deny others the rights and freedoms that we enjoy//

Unfortunately in supporting the ‘rights’ of women who choose to adopt the burqa, you are not only encouraging an on-going reluctance to integrate, you are inadvertently condoning the ‘rights’ of the misogynistic men who demand that their faceless women separate themselves permanently from society – and those are the women who are forced into marriage and who are subjected like lambs to the slaughter to such horrors as FGM - but few – including their so-called ‘sisters’ appear to give the rights of those poor souls as individuals a second thought. Support for this isn’t tolerance – it’s a sad indictment upon our increasingly nonsensical politically correct society where the rights of the politically minded – and that’s what these women are – take precedence over the rights of those who have no one to speak for them. While well-meaning westerners support this, the antiquated and unacceptable practices of this misogynistic religion will continue – and although you may think that your support is appreciated, it isn’t. These people are deliberately creating waves and in the process they are tying western principles of freedom up in knots. In short, they are laughing at us. Don’t be fooled!

[Zeuhl]

/entitled to deny others the rights and freedoms that we enjoy/

I'm not convinced I currently enjoy the right and freedom to walk about wearing a black face mask and hood.

If I do, I certainly wouldn't exercise it as it would be an unreasonable imposition on others I come into contact with

[viv38]

As usual, a great answer from naomi.

[emmie]

and we will be the losers in the end, because some of these incredibly hard won freedoms, particularly for women, could well fall by the wayside, i am surprised some don't see that. After all why should a) women be segregated in schools, uni, college because of their gender, unless they happen to go to an all girls establishment of course, and b) that it doesn't take much wit to see that you, we, would not be afforded these freedoms in many Islamic countries, that is what is so perverse.

[naomi24]

Thank you viv.

[ck1]

Zeuhl, would your main concern about not wearing a black facemask and hood really be the unreasonable imposition on others you come into contact with, or the fact that you'd feel like a bit of an idiot going to a fancy dress party?

[Mamyalynne]

Yes indeed a great and voluble answer by Naomi (I am somewhat constrained in the amount I can comfortably type)

I am uneasy with the notion that those such as myself who can live and converse alongside those who wear the veil are subtly brought into the wider issues of FGM and other subjugations - I know they go on and are horrific but if the choice to wear the veil is one made freely by the woman that is fine by me.

Also the more something is so called 'banned' the greater the number who will try to fly in the face of such a restriction.


I am nowhere near as erudite as a lot of you here, but try to live and let live whilst abhorring horror.

[andy-hughes]

naomi - "Andy Hughes, //this is not a ridiculous mode of dress//

The only place this mode of dress is not ridiculous is in the desert in the midst of a sand storm – when it becomes very practical."

Do I understand that you are assessing dress on the levels of its practicaility?

In that case, you must never wear high heels, short skirts, shorts, crop tops, tee-shirts, dresses, in fact virtually any item of female clothing with the exception of a khagoul and waterproof trousers, because any other mode of dress cannot be perceived as 'practical'.

Of course this is nonsense - but so is the idea that Mulsim women wear a veil because of its perceived practicality.

[emmie]

a veil in this case is not practical, have you ever seen a woman trying to eat wearing one, as i did the other day, it was painful to watch, she desperately tried not to let anything show of the face, is this what we should be teaching our daughters, don't show yourself, your face, it's wrong, shameful, it's your religion/culture, haven't we moved on since then. after all if the blokes all had to wear a burkha and veil do you really think they would.

[ichkeria]

AOG it's Ku Klux Klan by the way ...
(same root as cycle...)
Sorry to be pedantic but that mistake always drives me mad. In fact I think your spelling should be banned :-) I'm thinking of writing to my MP ...

[naomi24]

Andy Hughes, I am assessing this mode of dress upon your description of it – ie ‘not ridiculous’. And actually Muslim women do claim to wear the veil because of its perceived practicality – it protects them from the ever- licentious male gaze and from man's alleged uncontrollable urges - and that, they claim, is the sole reason they wear it. If I were a man, I wouldn't be supporting that - I'd view it as an insult.

[Hypognosis]

The mask wearer exerts control over what would otherwise be the observer.
It is a statement: "You are not allowed to look at me"

Discuss.

For starters, is this behaviour fair and equal treatment of other people?

[emmie]

it is assuming that all men will be lusting after these women, wouldn't you say that is just an excuse to subjugate and keep them in their supposed place.

[viv38]

Definitely.

[emmie]

it doesn't stop women being sexually, physically abused by said husband or his family, it just hides the scars better.

[Zeuhl]

/wearing a black facemask and hood ... you'd feel like a bit of an idiot/

there's nothing wrong with my Darth (i'm Sith I have to wear it) Vader costume
:-)

[emmie]

but you don't generally wear it to go out shopping, or down the pub with the rest of the klingons, or hangers on, whichever you prefer.

[naomi24]

Zeuhl only wears it to fend all the women off. ;o)