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Champagne Socialisnm Is Alive And Well !
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not that you need me to point it out !
and the little boy is going for a "safe" seat, ahhh bless ....well what did you expect him to do !?
not that you need me to point it out !
and the little boy is going for a "safe" seat, ahhh bless ....well what did you expect him to do !?
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Khandro and naomi..don't be bl00dy condescending !
I was born in 1953 and therefore went to a primary school in 1958 and took my 11+ in 1962-3. Having narrowly failed that exam, I spent half of my secondary education at a Secondary Modern School. Quite a good school as it happens. The school, tried its best but it lacked certain things that kids today would see as universal and perfectly normal.
For instance, we had a science classroom only, not a Physics, Chemistry or Biology Lab. We didn't have a Language Lab either. But if any of the top pupils, of which I was rather a reluctant one, showed an aptitude for any of these subjects, we were, if we were lucky and our face fitted, put on a bus a couple of times a week and sent up to the Grammar School, 10 miles away, in which we were sat at the back at the back of the relevant class. You could tell who we were because we were the ones that didn't have the expensive school uniform that the Grammar School pupils had.
If, at the Secondary School, you wanted to take O levels, well tough, because they only did CSE's. After all, what did we need with a good education...we were just working class boys, fit only for apprenticeships, such as carpenters, plumbers, and electricians. The girls faired even worse.
All the best Teachers taught at the Grammar School, while the ones deemed not to have done so well at Teacher Training School went to the Secondary Modern. As I said before, my Secondary School was rather a good one and did its best. But there was never a moment when I wasn't made to feel anything other than a disappointment to have failed the 11+ at the tender age of 9-10 years old. For most kids, that failure meant the parting of the waves, that lasted the rest of our lives.
In the second half of my secondary education at age 14, I moved to Wales and attended a Comprehensive school for the first time. What a breath of fresh air ! If I needed to study Physics, as I wanted to, it was a short trip up the corridor to the Physics Lab.
As it happened I did rather well at Physics, and my eventual career was reflected in that, having passed the O Level at Grade A.
Comprehensive education provided the best chance any that us working class kids ever had of making something of our lives, and I will defend that to my dying breath. The net result of Comprehensive education was the huge increase in university places for working class kids, that exploded in the 60's and 70's. Lets not forget that less than 20% of kids passed the 11+ and that most us therefore went to Secondary Moderns.
To answer naomi's point, the Tories seem to find no problem in finding the time to privatise the electricity, gas, water and telecoms industries. So I'm not sure, if the bl00dy Grammar Schools were so close to their hearts, why they couldn't make the extra effort to bring them back. after all, its not as if the Labour party of the time could do anything about it.
In reality, the Tories had accepted that Comprehensive education was the way forward, and to turn the clock back to the 1950's would have been a retrogressive move. Even with these daft "Free" schools, they still favour Comps.
If you and anybody else had a good Grammar School education, than I am pleased for you. But for the great majority of us kids in the 60's, the Comps were the best thing that ever happened.
So, maybe us "working class kids" didn't do badly after all !
I was born in 1953 and therefore went to a primary school in 1958 and took my 11+ in 1962-3. Having narrowly failed that exam, I spent half of my secondary education at a Secondary Modern School. Quite a good school as it happens. The school, tried its best but it lacked certain things that kids today would see as universal and perfectly normal.
For instance, we had a science classroom only, not a Physics, Chemistry or Biology Lab. We didn't have a Language Lab either. But if any of the top pupils, of which I was rather a reluctant one, showed an aptitude for any of these subjects, we were, if we were lucky and our face fitted, put on a bus a couple of times a week and sent up to the Grammar School, 10 miles away, in which we were sat at the back at the back of the relevant class. You could tell who we were because we were the ones that didn't have the expensive school uniform that the Grammar School pupils had.
If, at the Secondary School, you wanted to take O levels, well tough, because they only did CSE's. After all, what did we need with a good education...we were just working class boys, fit only for apprenticeships, such as carpenters, plumbers, and electricians. The girls faired even worse.
All the best Teachers taught at the Grammar School, while the ones deemed not to have done so well at Teacher Training School went to the Secondary Modern. As I said before, my Secondary School was rather a good one and did its best. But there was never a moment when I wasn't made to feel anything other than a disappointment to have failed the 11+ at the tender age of 9-10 years old. For most kids, that failure meant the parting of the waves, that lasted the rest of our lives.
In the second half of my secondary education at age 14, I moved to Wales and attended a Comprehensive school for the first time. What a breath of fresh air ! If I needed to study Physics, as I wanted to, it was a short trip up the corridor to the Physics Lab.
As it happened I did rather well at Physics, and my eventual career was reflected in that, having passed the O Level at Grade A.
Comprehensive education provided the best chance any that us working class kids ever had of making something of our lives, and I will defend that to my dying breath. The net result of Comprehensive education was the huge increase in university places for working class kids, that exploded in the 60's and 70's. Lets not forget that less than 20% of kids passed the 11+ and that most us therefore went to Secondary Moderns.
To answer naomi's point, the Tories seem to find no problem in finding the time to privatise the electricity, gas, water and telecoms industries. So I'm not sure, if the bl00dy Grammar Schools were so close to their hearts, why they couldn't make the extra effort to bring them back. after all, its not as if the Labour party of the time could do anything about it.
In reality, the Tories had accepted that Comprehensive education was the way forward, and to turn the clock back to the 1950's would have been a retrogressive move. Even with these daft "Free" schools, they still favour Comps.
If you and anybody else had a good Grammar School education, than I am pleased for you. But for the great majority of us kids in the 60's, the Comps were the best thing that ever happened.
So, maybe us "working class kids" didn't do badly after all !
A friend was a classical pianist. In the daytime she was sent to the local comprehensive to teach piano to the pupils who showed interest in music. Now, I never got piano lessons at all at my direct grant school !
The answer to my question before, about how comprehensives produced doctors and scientists and the rest, is surely that the more academically able are streamed, is it not, as happens in other countries ?
The answer to my question before, about how comprehensives produced doctors and scientists and the rest, is surely that the more academically able are streamed, is it not, as happens in other countries ?
//Did those secondary moderns produce better results overall than the comprehensives //
The quick answer is yes and still is. Counties who still have separate Grammar schools and Secondary Moderns achieve overall better results.
The main reason is the ethos of the school . Goals to aim for !
When comps were first set up they tried to have one size fits all with mixed ability classes. Teachers had to teach to cope with the average standard majority of the pupils which meant the brightest children were held back and the least bright children struggled. Inevitably these comp. schools had to introduce various forms of , setting, streaming and various fancy names to hide the fact children are all different in their abilities and are best taught with others of similar ability.
The trouble is much of the old dogma continued with abandment of CSEs and O levels which dragged down the standard of the replacement GCSEs.
This dumbing down has gone on ever since, that's why we are almost at the bottom of the education league amongst developed nations.
There is one advantage for any government with comp. schools. T
The quick answer is yes and still is. Counties who still have separate Grammar schools and Secondary Moderns achieve overall better results.
The main reason is the ethos of the school . Goals to aim for !
When comps were first set up they tried to have one size fits all with mixed ability classes. Teachers had to teach to cope with the average standard majority of the pupils which meant the brightest children were held back and the least bright children struggled. Inevitably these comp. schools had to introduce various forms of , setting, streaming and various fancy names to hide the fact children are all different in their abilities and are best taught with others of similar ability.
The trouble is much of the old dogma continued with abandment of CSEs and O levels which dragged down the standard of the replacement GCSEs.
This dumbing down has gone on ever since, that's why we are almost at the bottom of the education league amongst developed nations.
There is one advantage for any government with comp. schools. T
comp. There is one advantage for any government with comp. schools.
They are much cheaper to run than having separate selective schools.
An interesting point is that socialist countries like USSR were the first to scrap comp. education and went the other way with specialist schools for every subject , from ping pong to quantum physics.
The introduction of Free schools is just another attemp of trying to get around 11 plus type selection. In effect leaving the selection to the parents. IMO there may be some merit in Free Schools but not Faith Schools they will create great divisions in our society.
They are much cheaper to run than having separate selective schools.
An interesting point is that socialist countries like USSR were the first to scrap comp. education and went the other way with specialist schools for every subject , from ping pong to quantum physics.
The introduction of Free schools is just another attemp of trying to get around 11 plus type selection. In effect leaving the selection to the parents. IMO there may be some merit in Free Schools but not Faith Schools they will create great divisions in our society.
JJ, more do as i say than do as i do. Champagne socialism lives on and quite frankly those who accuse the Tories of being full of rich nabobs should look to the lib dems, labour as well, plenty of money swashing around amongst those ranks, how did Euan get the money, was it daddy's all along, i know Blair's portfolio of property is pretty full these days.
Mikey, Where am I being condescending? My home, a two bedroom flat with no bathroom or inside toilet, was shared between two families, and my school uniform was second-hand, as were all my clothes. Such privilege! For a working class kid, thanks to grammar schools, I didn’t do badly either. Your attitude displays all the signs of inverted snobbery. Your post smacks of disappointment at failing the 11 plus, but had you passed, I suspect you would have felt differently. It’s the old story. You couldn’t have it so you didn’t want anyone else to have it – and that, in general, seems to be the Labour supporters’ philosophy. Whilst claiming to despise wealth and privilege, if they were honest they would concede that if it came their way, few would reject it.
Fred; Don't ask me, ask them! A lot of them come from abroad though.
Also in my day (before Mikey) it wasn't just a matter of Grammar schools and Secondary Moderns, there was another main tranche between the two; High Schools, one of which I attended - though it was elevated into a Grammar School during my presence [with no thanks to me :-) ]
Also in my day (before Mikey) it wasn't just a matter of Grammar schools and Secondary Moderns, there was another main tranche between the two; High Schools, one of which I attended - though it was elevated into a Grammar School during my presence [with no thanks to me :-) ]
Naomi, that is it in a nutshell, who would pass up the chance of money if it came their way, be it lotto, inherited, windfall, very few. It may not make you happy, but it damn well beats what we grew up with, rationing, shortage of basic foodstuffs, and indeed not being able to afford decent school uniform, much embarrassment on my part throughout my senior schooling. Living in cramped, overcrowded accommodation, with an outside privy,
and I would have given anything to have gone to a grammar school, as it was i went to a secondary modern, ok in it's way, but not good enough, the careers officer gave you advice on working in a shop, factory, great.
and I would have given anything to have gone to a grammar school, as it was i went to a secondary modern, ok in it's way, but not good enough, the careers officer gave you advice on working in a shop, factory, great.
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