Capital Punishment

[reportmonkey]

Should it be reintroduced for those found guilty of crimes like that guy who stabbed a man because he complained about him throwing chips at his girlfriend. 

[mfewell]

Probably no, and not just in the light of the Evans/Bentley cases and others. Bentley in particular suffered because of the politics of the time - let's teach 'em a lesson. If on the other hand there is clear CCTV evidence, eye witnesses, DNA, then maybe...? But only if we admit that it is pure vengeance that motivates us, no notions of deterrence. What is in the question however is a deep concern about the violence in society which many of us cope with by not going on London buses on Friday evenings, never going out alone at night, crossing the road if we see 2 or more young men approaching. We have a problem which deliberate government policies and enlightened social engineering have created. We are plain stuck with it. Short of avoiding it I can't see a solution. Poor socially deprived youths. They don't realise that pushing a knife into someone's chest is wrong, they are just making a cry for help.

[MargeB]

That's right.

And those guys who popped an axe throught that boy's head in the park, they were simply misunderstood youths.

My plan would be to have a community get together of all those guilty of grievous bodily harm, and let them shout out their problems. Then they'll be fine, won't hurt a soul. Poor things.

[jno]

ah, but we have AB on which to vent our prejudices, whereas they probably haven't heard of it. Once they discovered the pleasures of slagging people off anonymously they'd probably never touch another axe.

[reportmonkey]

What about this....

If found guilty of murder...they get put in prison and put on the organ donors list for life together with blood donor and bone marrow donor lists.  

They must spend the rest of their lives saving the lives of others to atone.....if there wrongly accused it doesn't matter so much the've helped saved peoples lives which many people do voluntarily anyway..... 

[acw]

Cunning plan with the blood donors.  So long as they've never used a needle, slept with anyone who's used a needle, had sex with another man, had sex with a man who's had sex with a man, slept with a prostitute, had piercings or tattoos within 6 months etc. 

I suspect that the list of possible donors would end up quite short. 

Capital punishment will not work as a deterent to the type of youths discussed in this thread - i.e., the ones going round stabbing people.  This kids are arrogant and think they won't get caught.  Therefore the threat of dying would, I suspect, have little effect on them. 

If we're saying that murder is a problem of youth, then again the attention needs to be turned to parenting skills. 

[kev100]

londondave,

if your 18 year old son had been executed last friday for a murder you KNOW he couldn't have committed would you still think the saving of �36000 per annum was money well saved?

If the answer to that question is no then don't take the killing of other peoples children so lightly. One day you might be asking us to sign a petition as a last gasp measure to save one of yours.

[MargeB]

great post, kev100

[LeMarchand]

Surely in this case there is no question over guilt? It's also quite likely that anyone that deranged would be probably kill someone else if left in society. I can't see that that sort of person will ever contribute anything good to society, and is much more likely to spawn a few equally as nasty offspring.

Do we spend hundreds of thousands caring for him, or a couple of thousand executing him? (Which might have the added benefit of deterring a few others from such acts). I'm leaning towards - in this case - capital punishment, though there is the worry that it will be extended to other, less clear cut, cases.

[acw]

LeMarchand - I refer you to KEV's excelllent response to Londondave's earlier post.  If your relative developed a mental illness and went on to commit a serious crime.  Would you want them cared for, or put down like a rabid dog? 

 

 

Exactly. 

[MargeB]

depends. Did their IQ sharpen up due to contact with the legal system?

(sorry, I don't have the bbc news link for that story).

[acw]

Marge - please do clarify - i'm a bit confused!

I'm sure you're not equating low IQ with mental illness, but I just don't get what you're saying! Sorry! :-)

[LeMarchand]

acw: Does the guy who committed the stabbing have a mental illness?

[MargeB]

Low IQ is technically a mental abnormality. If you think that's a bit suspect, you may be right, but that's because definitions of 'psychological abnormality' are a bit suspect, not because the logic is flawed.

henyway, here's the link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4657897.stm

[reportmonkey]

He must have surely?

[LeMarchand]

reportmonkey: (Assuming you're answering my mental illness question). I'm sure that's what his lawyer will claim (+ deprived background etc etc)...

[acw]

Lemarchand - I was moving away from the case in question and considering the general and wider issue of capital punishment.  I'm saying that there will always be exceptions and that I think capital punishment is very risky. 

I don't know if the guy in the case in question had a mental illness or not.

I was actually turning it around to ask you a question - I'd be interested to hear your answer.  See my above post.

MargeB - Got you now!  And it's too true about flakey definitions.

Lemarchand again - If his lawyer does that then he'll be doing his job very well.  That's what defence lawyers do.  I personally don't know how they can look themselves in the mirror when they've spent the day in court defending rapists and murderers.  However, sometimes (though apparently not in the case in question) they are defending an innocent man/woman so I guess that's what they hope for.  Either way - the lawyer's gonna do his job well in order to put food on the table for his family.  Even if the way he does his job sucks to the rest of us! :-(

[londondave]

If my 18 year old son had been the one to stab the man on the bus or be the one to axe the 18 year old in Liverpool and there was CCTV & DNA to prove it then yes hang him. As it happens I do not have or want kids and have a vasectomy anyway. I take a hard line against crime and punishment. Believe me the bloke who nicked my bike has difficulty riding another one!!!

[acw]

Londondave - think of your mum or your wife or you boyfriend or whoever then.  Perhaps you have siblings. 

I accept that you take a hardline on crime and I respect that view, but I do find it hard to understand that you would want your relative to be dead and that your opinion would change so drastically.  I would like to understand, although I feel I'll never agree with you on this to be honest. 

I also feel it's a bit tricky to comment on killing your own son when you don't want kids.  But I suppose again, it's just your opinion. 

Finally - I tihnk that where it gets very very tricky is if one member of your (anyone's I mean, not just londondave's!) family murdered another member.  I don't know what I'd want then.  Do any of you?

[LeMarchand]

acw: As I stated, this particular case seems cut and dried, but I can see problems with actually reintroducing capital punishment.

I wasn't making any comment on the side discussion about whether mental disability should be a factor that might commute a crime that would otherwise merit a death sentence to something else, but if you want my view: possibly.

Again, it's something that would be near-impossible to define. The case that MargeB linked to is a good example. In that case, no. The perpetrator could clearly function in society, and I doubt that any of his peers would have considered him mentally disabled. I think the key factor is whether the perpetrator would have known what the consequences of their actions would be. In the original case, the guy clearly knew that stabbing someone else would result in injury/death. There may be cases where this is not true, but such people probably wouldn't (shouldn't) be wandering the streets.

As for what if it was a relative of mine?  I would like to think/hope that I would have the courage of my convictions. Of course, none of us ever knows the answer to that question until our convictions are tested.

[londondave]

ofcourse no one wants a relative dead, but nor did the victims family.

My Dads step brother was hanged for murder but I don't know the circumstances as he doesn't talk about it.

He had to grieve too. A life for a life and all that. The money spent on people in prison that have been proved beyond doubt like Peter Sutcliffe, Myra Hinldly, etc etc could have been spent on so many worthy things.