Retail Apartheid?

[mushroom25]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2527820/Marks-Spencer-tells-Muslim-staff-CAN-refuse-serve-customers-buying-alcohol-pork.html

Good Idea?

[Zeuhl]

/It may not be "policy" but that doesn't mean it can't happen./

elipsis

by your own account, the situation is the result of 'mistakes' not 'policy'

the M&S commitment to customer service appears to be paramount, but I would question the wisdom of making such potentially disruptive commitments to staff.

If our company's attitude to people with limiting religious beliefs has meant we have missed out on some excellent potential employees I would be very surprised - and perfectly content.

[naomi24]

What the Koran says – or what Mohammed said – is irrelevant. If people feel that they are unable to work alongside their colleagues on an equal footing, they shouldn’t be given the job.

[dunnitall]

Agree Naomi and Alice you're right... But the religionists whoever they are will still say they are right the thinkers cannot win, religion is the be all and end all for some especially if Islam is involved it seems.

[Ellipsis]

Zeuhl, the point I'm making is that it's possible (and happened), through no fault of the customer, for the customer to be refused service for something the store sells and they're legally entitled to buy. Therefore the "the M&S commitment to customer service" is not "paramount".

When such a problem occurs then the fault definitely can't be said to lie with the customer. It must either lie with M&S or with the worker or both. Which would you say?

[Zeuhl]

/Therefore the "the M&S commitment to customer service" is not "paramount"./

Well M&S may well argue that one isolated mistake in one store does not represent their overall service

/It must either lie with M&S or with the worker or both. Which would you say?/

Based on what I have seen, it's the fault of M&S

If they (misguidedly in my view) made a commitment to the employee that they wouldn't have to handle certain products, then putting them in that situation was wrong and apparently, not just an inconvenience for the customer but embarrassing for the staff member.

[Ellipsis]

Yes, I agree - the fault is with M&S for having the policy, not with the worker for availing themselves of it.

[dunnitall]

My point in thinking about this is...if people stuck to their own then this would not be happening in Britain they would not even have to consider selling alcohol or suchlike in their own state! This country chooses to sell whatever, if you don't like it don't come here...simples.

[jim360]

Your point is that you don't have one. Keeping groups apart for the so-called sake of harmony always leads to trouble because most people are nice most of the time and want to meet others. Every time the experiment of segregation is tried it ends up failing because you have to enforce it and people also don't enjoy being told where they can and can't go either.

[Zeuhl]

elip

yes you're right

my only pedantry would be that the policy itself (though undesirable in my opinion) is not in itself the problem. If they can apply it within their business then it's up to them

the real issue is that they apparently can't apply it in their business without causing problems all round

[tamborine]

any wonder patients die from MRSA & Clostridium difficile. Whats wrong with a bar of soap ?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7576357/Muslim-staff-escape-NHS-hygiene-rule.html

[Gromit]

I am not religious myself but I don't think having a faith should bar anyone from employment. Employers can be as flexible or as inflexible as they like. M&S choose to be flexible, so it is up to them who they employ.

I used to work for an advertising agency and one day I was tasked with producing sales material for a weapons manufacturer for an arms show. I asked if I could do a different job that day and my employer said OK. A good employer will know if a worker is shirking or is genuine and will also know if an employee is worth retaining or not.

[naomi24]

Tambo, I posted that on the previous page. A bar of soap doesn't cover the arms, which is what that is all about. Bare arms are immodest.

Zeuhl, Absolutely right. As well as creating resentment, understandably, pussyfooting around religious foibles creates more problems than it solves. The same terms of employment should apply to all – take it or leave it.

[naomi24]

Gromit, having faith doesn't, as far as I'm aware, bar anyone from employment. Bringing that faith into the workplace and expecting employers and colleagues to make special arrangements for it is another matter entirely.

[Zeuhl]

Gromit

Interesting point

We would be the same on the arms manufacturer. We have passed on three major pieces of business when we were approached by a tobacco company and twice by gaming organisations.

We have always avoided working with political parties.

If we (ie the company's directors) took a client on and found team members had issues I suppose we would work around it, but the reality is that if a team member's Values were fundamentally different to those of the company Principals the relationship might not survive.

It's happened once in 15 years as far as i can remember and the woman in question moved on quite quickly

[boxtops]

"This country chooses to sell whatever, if you don't like it don't come here...simples."

Drawback to that - many Muslims, and those of other faiths, were born here, or are converts from the indigenous population, and have every right to be here.

[naomi24]

Boxy, wherever they’re born, religion doesn’t give them the right to decide which part of a job they are going to do and which part they are not. A job is a job. Either do it – or don’t. They have a choice.

[boxtops]

I do agree, naomi. The job description is the job description - if you don't do it, you get hauled over the coals in other employments.

[Ellipsis]

> I used to work for an advertising agency and one day I was tasked with producing sales material for a weapons manufacturer for an arms show. I asked if I could do a different job that day and my employer said OK. A good employer will know if a worker is shirking or is genuine and will also know if an employee is worth retaining or not.

That may be fine as a one off. But if the advertising agency was selling to weapons manufacturers every day (like M&S sells alcohol and pork every day), would you have wanted to work there? And would you have been comfortable accepting your pay cheque, knowing that a regular part of the income to the company was derived from sales to weapons manufacturers? And that's just your considerations - not those of your colleagues, employers who would have to take your attitude into account on an ongoing basis while they continued to deal with the customers that you weren't happy to deal with.

If this kind of mismatch happens regularly, e.g. every day, then employee and employer are not a good fit.

> the reality is that if a team member's Values were fundamentally different to those of the company Principals the relationship might not survive

Precisely.

Having said all that, though, the fact is that M&S can do what they like within the law. If they want to make allowances for religious workers, it's their prerogative to do so. If that means that some other workers, or customers, aren't happy then it's their prerogative to work or shop elsewhere.

Just don't call it "secular", M&S, because it isn't.

[Svejk]

No promotion for Moslems at M&S then.

[emmie]

i thought the story absurd and if true M&S should be ashamed of themselves.
what i do find strange, is how many Muslim women wear the burkha, niqab whilst working in the retail business, especially in fashion places like Primark, Next, M&S, it's a cultural, religious thing surely, if so why do Christians get lambasted for wearing a symbol of their religion. Not to mention in doctors surgeries and hospitals, fully covered.