Pope Francis

[emmie]

views on abortion, with an ever increasing world population, is he out of touch, or does he feel he has to say it because of his position.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25723422

[gness]

Okay, Hoppy.....of the women I know who have had to have abortions.. and because of the teachings of the CC I include myself...I can only think of one that was because of inconvenience.
She was thirteen and foolish....but if she felt it was wrong to have that baby then it was her choice.....not yours or the Popes. Neither of you knows she exists but you still want to impact upon her life.
Were you a female with your views, Hoppy.....you would have the freedom to choose to have the baby...whatever.
You cannot, and should never wish, to deprive others of that freedom.

[ummmm]

You have to get two doctors to agree with your reasons for abortion. If they don't agree the only way you'd get an abortion is to pay privately.

They have your medical records in front of them when they are making their decision so they know what form of contraception you're taking, if any. If you're not prescribed any then you'd have to convince two doctors that you were using condoms. If they don't believe you, especially if you've had abortion/s previously, they can refuse.

[Hopkirk]

If you look back over my comments I have not said I am totally against abortion in all cases, although I am not comfortable with ending a human life.

I have great sympathy for cases such as Gness, and I apologise if I have caused any upset.

It is the large number of abortions due to lifestyle choice that I am unhappy about.

I was also drawing attention to the hypocrisy of our race that we can refuse to end a lfe for someone who is suffering, but terminate a pregnancy because the child might not have a good life.

[gness]

Hoppy.....many of us also think we should have the right to die.

[emmie]

i object on the grounds its some bloke in a frock, expounding on matters he knows, or will never know anything about, the female reproductive system, in all it's gory.

[gness]

Oh and by the way, Hoppy no need to apologise.....of course you caused no upset....How dull if we all had the same thoughts, feelings and ideas.

But you and the pope are still wrong....☺☺...x

[ummmm]

lol

[LazyGun]

"It is the large number of abortions due to lifestyle choice that I am unhappy about."

-And how are you substantiating this?

The Pope and the Catholic church justify their stance on abortion, since according to their doctrine life begins at the moment of fertilization, so any abortion is the termination of a human life.

This is not a definition that I would agree with.
, o
But i think what discomfits people the most about abortions are the late-term abortions, typically after the 20th week of gestation. But these are exceptionally uncommon, and only carried out where there would be a grave risk to the mothers health from carrying the baby to term, cases such as this one, for instance;

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pregnant-el-salvador-woman-denied-life-saving-abortion/

In terms of whether a pregnancy or a foetus is viable outside of the womb - Almost all foetus's prior to 21 weeks will die; Almost all foetus's after 27 weeks will live. (Full term would be between 37-41 weeks) In between is the grey area.
So for those wishing to reduce the upper limit in the UK ( currently 24 weeks) - where do wish to reduce it to, and why?

We are having increasing success in maintaining a foetus outside of the womb in Paediatric Intensive Care Units, for instance - but the effort required, in terms of trained medics, 24 hour nursing care, incubators and everything else, is huge. And for those that are able to survive, their long term health is impacted; many suffer neurodevelopmental issues, others suffer other serious chronic health issues, and a substantial proportion will have a reduced life expectancy. So to say that foetuses that are born prior to 24 weeks can survive is technically true, but does not give a full picture.

Personally, I am ok with the existing limits and access for abortion.

[sandyRoe]

I agree with Emme's post at 9.57 re abortion. Once born the opportunities to fall into sinful ways are legion, but the soul of the unborn child must be as white as the driven snow. It would go straight to Heaven.

[gness]

Emmie...a little tale to amuse you slightly...made us laugh eventually but we're an odd family.

My cousin phoned: Hi, Gness....have to tell you my dad died today.
Me: I'm so sorry...what happened?
C. I think the Monks killed him.
Me: Errr...how?

My uncle had collapsed at breakfast in their small kitchen. He was wedged between the wall and the table.
In our family you phone the priest then the doctor but unfortunately a houseful of monks lived over the road and got there first.

When the paramedics arrived the monks were also wedged under the table performing the Sacrament of Extreme Unction.....no-one thought to move the table.
The monks were refusing to move for the paramedics because the soul had to be prepared for heaven.....the paramedics were more concerned abut saving a life and trying to shift the monks.

Honestly, Gness....said the cousin.....you have seen nothing till you've seen three monks and two paramedics fighting over a the body and soul of a dying man.....

[ummmm]

LG - If late abortions are only carried out for medical reasons or in certain exceptional cases, then I suppose it shouldn't be lowered.

It's a difficult one because not all women have regular periods and not all pregnancies have early symptoms.

[gness]

Sandy...I thought we were born in sin until baptism. Am I wrong about that?...x

[emmie]

some women don't know they are pregnant until baby arrives, it happens.

[ummmm]

It certainly does.

I was reading about a woman who was in a car accident. She was taken to hospital where she found out she was pregnant. Sent for a scan and told she was over 7 months gone...she didn't have a clue.

[sandyRoe]

I'm no theologian but believe that we all carry the burden of Original Sin into the world. But compared to the other sins we may commit in our lives it seems, at best(or at worst) a venial offence that wouldn't on its own stop the offended seeing Heaven.

[andy-hughes]

This debate has been raised a number of times onm the AB and my position remains the same.

I do not believe that any woman undertakes the physical and emoptional tramua of a termination because it is 'convenient', or in lieu of contraception - and to suggest so infers a glib misunderstanding of what is involved for any woman to terminate her pregnancy.

I have always believed that any woman has the choice about whether or not she carries a pregnancy to term - and that is a fundamental right which transcends religious teaching, or simple high-ground moralising by those who know nothing of individual circumstances.

The Catholic church is etirely out of touch on this issue, as any other issue, and continues to be so while its structure is founded on a network of celebate men living rarified lives in communities which foster an unhealthy attitude that they can do as they please.

The Pope is every priest writ large - and every one of them lives an unatural life, dispensing advice on matters which they cannot understand - abortion is just one of those.

[gness]

I see, Sandy. I was taught that unbaptised babies went to Limbo for eternity without communion with god.

I see now that the church has changed its mind and says that there are good reasons to hope that a merciful god would allow babies who die unbaptised into heaven.

[mccfluff]

i expect he believes what he is saying

i believe its the woman's right to choose, should i find myself pregnant - extremely unlikely as i've been sterilised, i would have an abortion, I don't want kids.

[sandyRoe]

The trouble with joking about religion is that you can't avoid touching on sensitive subjects. If there was a God I can't see how he/she would deny an innocent child a place in Heaven.

[gness]

Neither can I, Sandy but it's what I was taught, grew up believing and how awful for a believer if her child died at birth.