Wait A Minute What's Happening Here, Could It Be That There Could Now Be Some Doubt?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10984739/MH17-no-link-to-Kremlin-in-plane-downing-US-intelligence.html

[sp1814]

AOG

Yes, there will be some doubt until investigations have concluded. At the moment, there's a lot of speculation, claims, and counter-claims.

[agchristie]

Evidence is everything of course and there is seemingly much work to be done yet until the finger can be firmly pointed...

[Gromit]

// Senior US intelligence officials have said that Russia was responsible for "creating the conditions" that led to the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, but they offered no evidence of direct Russian government involvement. //

Which is more or less what I posted on Sunday and was promptly jumped on by several ABers.

Gromit: 12:12 Sun 20th Jul 2014
// No one is doubting that pro-Russia Rebels used a Russian built launcher and missiles to down the aircraft. Everything in that Guardian Report confirms that. The rush to blame a Russian crew is political. They may have been responsible, but there is the possibility that they were not.
Mistaking a civilian aircraft for a military aircraft appears to be something an untrained separatist operator might do rather than a trained Russian one. //

[anotheoldgit]

Gromit

Or what I originally posted on Saturday 19th July.

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/News/Question1351740.html

[ichkeria]

They offered no hard evidence because they don't have any.
It is as simple as that.
This is a serious intelligence assessment by people who deal in hard facts.
Proving that it was a missile that actually came from Russia might prove very difficult. There is much circumstantial evidence though.
"No Kremlin involvement" though is a misleading headline and doesn't match the contents of the report.
BTW it is the Tory-party supporting Daily Telegraph website that has an entire section sponsored by the Russian Government isn't it?
Just checking :-)

[Gromit]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/

[Gromit]

// the Tory-party supporting Daily Telegraph website that has an entire section sponsored by the Russian Government isn't it? //

26 International newspapers in 23 countries print the same supplement.

http://rbth.com/about_us/partners

Are you suggesting they are all working for the Kremlin?

[ChillDoubt]

No, there.s no doubt. No one accused the Russians of DIRECTLY downing the aircraft i.e. it was not a Russian Forces AA unit that fired the missile.

It's just re-iterating what most surmised i.e. that Russian BACKED separatists/rebels were responsible, which has been borne out by their actions/radio and media transmissions immediately after the attack and at the crash site.

[Gromit]

// No one accused the Russians of DIRECTLY downing the aircraft i.e. it was not a Russian Forces AA unit that fired the missile. //

The Ukrainians are claiming that. You obviously couldn't be bothered looking at my link above, so here is the short version...

// Vitaly Nayda, Ukraine's director of informational security, told CNN the person who shot down the flight was "absolutely" a Russian. "A Russian-trained, well-equipped, well-educated officer ... pushed that button deliberately," he said.
"We taped conversations" between a Russian officer and his office in Moscow, Nayda said. "We know for sure that several minutes before the missile was launched, there was a report" to a Russian officer that the plane was coming, he said. //

[ichkeria]

Ukraine's evidence I have no doubt is valid.
All the intercepts thus far made public have been validated by the US
However the US presumably prefers to use its own intelligence as the basis for its own assessments, and prefers, understandably, hard forensic evidence in any case.
I have no doubt in due course it will be shown that a missile from Russia was the one fired.
And then it matters not whether the finger on the button was that of a Russian solder. The cock-up over the targeting suggests perhaps not.
We also know that they were reporting straight back to the GRU in Moscow immediately after the attack, which is pretty damning in itself

[ichkeria]

"Are you suggesting they are all working for the Kremlin? "

Russia Beyond the Headlines certainly is. Of course the newspapers aren't

[ChillDoubt]

Gromit,
I meant Western governments. Ukraine aside, the UK, US, France et al reasoned that there would not have been any direct Russian involvement.
That's not to say that the puppet master hasn't been at work though with his rebel toys.

[anotheoldgit]

Nothing has been proven so far, they are not even sure that it was a surface to air missile that brought the plane down.

Can we not let the British tolerance kick in here, and state that one is innocent until proven guilty?

[sp1814]

AOG

There will not be a definitive answer. There will not be a case answered in a court of law. There will be evidence to support and disprove Russia's direct or indirect involvement, and we will make up our minds based on this evidence. Even in the same newspaper titles there are articles condemning Russia, and then others claiming that condemnation is premature.

[Old_Geezer]

It'd be a very naïve government that left evidence of what it got involved with. Better by far to ensure a clear up whatever can be first, then let folk at the evidence. Whilst there is no clear cut proof at the moment as to the r4esponsible party one must surely be allowed to speculate on who was the most likely to provide that sort of weaponry, and who would be needed to help operate such sophisticated anti aircraft/missile measures ?

[ChillDoubt]

Nothing has been proven so far, they are not even sure that it was a surface to air missile that brought the plane down.
------------------
Care to list the alternative theories then?

[Gromit]

Chill

This is obviously Russian propaganda, but, as unlikely as it seems, it cannot be discounted yet. We have a better theory, but that has not been proven.

// 2 Ukrainian fighters seen following Malaysian jet minutes before crash

Russia July 18, 3:35 UTC+ MOSCOW, July 18, /ITAR-TASS/.

Two Ukrainian fighters were following the passenger Boeing-777 of Malaysian Airlines several minutes before the crash, Russia’s television Channel One said on Friday, citing a tweet made a Spanish air traffic controller of Kiev’s airport Borispol.
According to the Spanish air traffic controller, two Ukrainian fighters had been seen near the Malaysian jet three minutes before it disappeared from radars.
This information is confirmed by eyewitnesses in the Donetsk region who saw Ukrainian warplanes near the passenger jet. They say they heard sounds of powerful blasts and saw a Ukraine warplane shortly before the crash.
A Boeing-777 of the Malaysian Airlines that was en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, disappeared from the radars and crashed on Thursday evening near the settlement of Grabovo in Ukraine’s Donetsk region. All those who were onboard the plane - 280 passengers and 15 crew members - died. //

[anotheoldgit]

methy

/// Makes you wonder if the Russians were trying to shoot down the Ukranian "warplanes" and hit an airliner instead. ///

Do you actually mean the Russians or the Ukrainian rebels?