Extremely Worrying, Racist, Or Just Plain Business Sense?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2802543/taxi-firm-rochdale-offers-white-drivers-demand-two-pakistani-origin-jailed-sex-grooming-girls-town.html

[-Talbot-]

Of course if women are a little bit scared of being raped by a taxi driver they simply have the choice of using buses or trains or even walking. After all a taxi is a not essential, it is a choice.
Nuisance women taking precautions to keep themselves safe eh?

[-Talbot-]

People may wonder if more drivers were involved but not caught. You may see them as racist, I see them as sensible. If it was happening in a town or city that had not this problem of Asian groomers/rapist/traffickers..... then I could see your point.

[andy-hughes]

New Judge - "The rationality of the choice of driver based on race is identical to the rationality of choosing one on the basis of gender, Andy. The former you seem to condemn, the latter you seem to think is acceptable. Why is that?"

I don;t believe the two are the same.

The rationality of assuming that a woman is less likely to be a sexual predator is based on simple statistics - the chances of a woman being sexually assualted by another woman are far lower than that or being assaulted by a man - so gender is the determining factor.

That may not necessarily be a rational way of choosing a taxi driver, or even desireable, but it is a choice based on statistical evidence.

I believe that no such statistical data would back up the choice of assuming that an Asian driver is more likely to be a predator than a white driver - assuming that statistics are weighted appropriately to take into account the numbers of Asian as against white drivers, which in a number of cities, form the majority.

I believe it comes down to a choice based on gender, over race, and I personally find one more acceptable than the other.

[andy-hughes]

Talbot - "Of course if women are a little bit scared of being raped by a taxi driver they simply have the choice of using buses or trains or even walking. After all a taxi is a not essential, it is a choice.
Nuisance women taking precautions to keep themselves safe eh?"

I am not sure of the point you are making here?

A taxi is not always a choice.

In the event of a journey being too long to walk, and at time when buses and trains are not running, it becomes a necessity.

What point are you making?

[andy-hughes]

Talbot - "People may wonder if more drivers were involved but not caught. You may see them as racist, I see them as sensible. If it was happening in a town or city that had not this problem of Asian groomers/rapist/traffickers..... then I could see your point."

The point is Talbot - because a number of taxi drivers of Asian origin have been convicted of sexual offences, that does not justify tarring an entire ethnic group with the same brush - that is racist, and it is illegal.

Why not simply assume that all taxi drivers are raposts, or all men who drive taxis are rapists, or all men in Rochdale are rapists, or all men anywhere are rapists?

Just how far do you think you can take that reasoning?

Nowhere, which is why it is wrong to demonise a number of men because they share the same ethnicity and profession as some locally convicted criminals.

It's a good job your logic was not applied to GP's in the wake of the Shipman case - where would people have been then?

[Gromit]

// I believe that no such statistical data would back up the choice of assuming that an Asian driver is more likely to be a predator than a white driver //

But there is data. 2 drivers who worked for this firm were part of the Asian gang of groomers. We do not know the otal number of drivers they employed or what the ethnic mix was, but we do know that 2 of them were rapists and Asian. Therefore, choosing a driver who is not Asian seems like a good choice to some customers, based on the statistical evidence available.

[New Judge]

I accept the rationale of your argument, Andy. But of course such an analysis would be based on national figures. The chances of the conclusions of such a study being the same for Rochdale as they are for, say, Frinton-on-Sea are probably slim.

However, the point is that (with a very few exceptions, and taxi services are not among them) companies are not entitled to hire staff or allocate work on the basis of gender any more than they are on the basis of race.

[kvalidir]

You do understand Andy that this cuts two ways as well- a lot of Muslim families request Muslim drivers ( all over the country)- which in your world is equally racist but unlikely to be called out.
I am not a racist, most Taxi drivers I have encountered are Asian, I have had no problem with them, my one brother was robbed by one once, but there is the odd bad egg and no-one in our family would dream of requesting someone of a particular race. However Rochdale is not a massive place and like it or not some people will err on the side of caution with their personal safety and request a white driver because two Asian drivers were convicted, in Rochdale that particular erring would probably hold statistically true. You can't force the terribly slow eradication of racism when people become frightened of something, you only encourage more cohension between the two communities in positive ways, which sadly I think will be a long time coming.

[New Judge]

As you have said yourself, Andy:

"Why not simply assume that ...all men anywhere are rapists?"

That is what your acceptance of gender-based taxi driver requests seems to imply.

[ludwig]

// I am not sure of the point you are making here?
A taxi is not always a choice. //

It's probably an ironic reference to your view that users of social media should change their own behaviour to avoid being abused rather than expecting the people carrying out the abuse to change theirs.

[andy-hughes]

ludwig - "// I am not sure of the point you are making here?
A taxi is not always a choice. //

It's probably an ironic reference to your view that users of social media should change their own behaviour to avoid being abused rather than expecting the people carrying out the abuse to change theirs."

I fail to see the connection - if indeed there is one.

[andy-hughes]

Gromit - "// I believe that no such statistical data would back up the choice of assuming that an Asian driver is more likely to be a predator than a white driver //

But there is data. 2 drivers who worked for this firm were part of the Asian gang of groomers. We do not know the otal number of drivers they employed or what the ethnic mix was, but we do know that 2 of them were rapists and Asian. Therefore, choosing a driver who is not Asian seems like a good choice to some customers, based on the statistical evidence available."

That data is by no means a sound base for the actions taken - as I am sure you are aware.

I would venture to suggest that people avoiding Asian taxi drinvers in Rochdale are not doing it because of data - wouldn't you agree?

[youngmafbog]

I wonder how many of those shouting racist live in Rochdale.

I strongly suspect that no one does and are taking offence on behalf of others from the comfort of their armchair in Islington.

[andy-hughes]

kvalidir - "You do understand Andy that this cuts two ways as well- a lot of Muslim families request Muslim drivers ( all over the country)- which in your world is equally racist but unlikely to be called out."

Yes I do understand this, and I would wish to point out that it's not in 'my world', it's just in the world.

"I am not a racist, most Taxi drivers I have encountered are Asian, I have had no problem with them, my one brother was robbed by one once, but there is the odd bad egg and no-one in our family would dream of requesting someone of a particular race. However Rochdale is not a massive place and like it or not some people will err on the side of caution with their personal safety and request a white driver because two Asian drivers were convicted, in Rochdale that particular erring would probably hold statistically true. You can't force the terribly slow eradication of racism when people become frightened of something, you only encourage more cohension between the two communities in positive ways, which sadly I think will be a long time coming."

Now that I entirely agree with - absolutely no argument.

The thrust of my point, which I know you would agree with - is that simply boycotting an ethnic minority on the basis of criminal behaviour is not a good way for people to behave, it simply accents divisions which are hopefully, by degrees, being broken down as generations progress.

I would love to hope that you will see as much progress in this area by the time your reach my age, as I have seen since I was yours.

[ludwig]

It is racism, just as insisting on a female driver is sexism.

However, I don't believe it's illegal to be racist or sexist in determining what services you want to use as a customer, only when determining which customers you will serve as a provider - at least that's what others on the thread with more knowledge of legal matters are saying, so I'd tend to believe them.

[trt]

If I am paying for a taxi, and the taxi company has drivers of different races, I think I am entitled to request whether I want a white, black, Asian or a women driver.

I am the one thats paying!!!!!!

[Old_Geezer]

I can see some may feel safer and thus there is a demand, but it is near the line, if not over it, to pander to folk thinking that, because some members of a group (race in this case) commit something bad all of that group must be tainted with the same suspicion. I would doubt the risk with one race is statistically significantly greater than with another race. I think I'd want to discourage this type of additional service.

[andy-hughes]

ludwig - "It is racism, just as insisting on a female driver is sexism.

However, I don't believe it's illegal to be racist or sexist in determining what services you want to use as a customer, only when determining which customers you will serve as a provider - at least that's what others on the thread with more knowledge of legal matters are saying, so I'd tend to believe them."

As do I - I must recind my stance that racism in this context is illegal.

Since all business providers are legally entitled to refuse service without explanation, it would be foolish indeed to ellaborate with any notion of racism.

[Old_Geezer]

Whatever the customer wants, it is still discrimination, and as such an issue society as a whole should discuss the ethics, whether it is acceptable or not.

[andy-hughes]

trt - "If I am paying for a taxi, and the taxi company has drivers of different races, I think I am entitled to request whether I want a white, black, Asian or a women driver."

Apparently you are.

But would you feel the need so to do?