The Catalan Referendum

[piggynose]

If Spain is a democracy, why is Barcelona not allowed to go independent?

[AB Editor]

Because democracy doesn't mean everyone does what they want when they want to at any time? It's more or less the rule of the moderate majority in most cases.

[AB Editor]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29982960 - Here's the story.

The had a local vote which said "would you like to be independent?" and they said yes oddly enough.

I am unsure if they have a regional parliament or any kind of devolution, but that does seem to be part of the conversation:

"Voters were asked two questions - whether they wanted Catalonia to be a state and whether they wanted that state to be independent."

[Gromit]

For a region to break away and become an independent country, both sides must be in agreement. The Scotland referendum was agreed through an act of parliament. The UK Government agreed that Scotland could have its say.

From what I can gather, that has not happened in Catalan. The referendum was initiated at regional level. The Spanish Government wanted to go more slowly. On the date that the Catalans unilaterally decided to have their vote, the Givernment in Madrid decided there would be a vote on consultation on the matter.

So the referendum wasn't really a legal one in the way the Scottish one was.

[Peter Pedant]

Think Scotland, baby

Spain as a democracy, is committed to not splitting up the country. Whether or not there are stronger feelings of region - Aragon, Leon and so on

and it comes down to the unit is too small.

You need a certain number of people to become a modern country.
Otherwise you lead a life like Vanuatu ( where ?)
or Jordan 7m supporting 4 m extra refugees.

Spain you recollect was very sure that an independent Scotland would have to start again and it was connected with this.

Whenever I see Alec Salmond I think God we may have a better politician on the numbers game on Manchester or Liverpool council ( combined pop 6 m ) - and I wouldnt let any of them run a country !

[Old_Geezer]

As said above by Ed, being a democracy doesn't mean one part of a whole can just secede from the whole just because the folk there want it, although it is awkward to try to keep an area against their will. One can not just have bits of a country just leaving whenever they wish to, there has to be consideration as to the best option by the democratically elected representatives.

in any case just because the majority opinion in one part of a whole is in favour of something doesn't mean that the democratic opinion in the whole thing is in favour. A minority is still a minority and don't tend to get their way unless the rest allow a concession.

Anyway, "FREEDOM FOR TOOTING !"

[sunny-dave]

Catalonia and the Basque Country are (arguably) at least as regionally distinct as Scotland.

France and Spain watched the Scots Referendum with some degree of anxiety and were very relieved when it said "NO".

I agree with Ab_Ed - you can't have bits of long established countries just taking their ball home and seceding - that way lies Balkanisation and endless border squabbles (or worse).



PS :

So the Independent Republic of ChatterBank is not a starter then Mr Ed?

[Peter Pedant]

Yeah - it is a bit like one of your kids moving into a flat ( and being independent see ) and then finding he cant pay the rent...

I feel sorry for the Jordanians who werent exactly rich before the refugees poured in....

[AB Editor]

Everyone else on the other side of the picket line will be shouting:

"Freedom FROM Tooting"

etc.

[Old_Geezer]

I say that when the neighbours roll up at 1am in their car.

[AB Editor]

Boom boom!

[New Judge]

"...both sides must be in agreement."

Unfortunately in the case of Scotland only the MPs agreed to a referendum and then one in which only the Scots would have a vote. Tacit agreement from the rest of the UK to this arrangement was taken by those MPs when in fact, to break up a country, all of its inhabitants should have a say. As Peter has pointed out, Spain (as a whole) does not agree to splitting up the country. It is quite clear that the UK as a whole is similarly indisposed to the break up of the UK. But that was not a consideration. Less than 10% of the nation wants it to be considered, so be considered it was. OG has similarly expanded on this idea.

So it is with Catalonia. The difference is that the democratically elected government of Spain has resisted the idea on behalf of all of the Spanish people. The UK government acquiesced to the idea simply at the behest of the Scots.

[Gromit]

// The UK government acquiesced to the idea simply at the behest of the Scots. //

And so it should be.

If he majority of Scots had voted that they wanted to leave, they should have been allowed to leave. As it is, that didn't happen.

The Spanish Government would be foolish not to devolve more piwers to its regions. Trying to ignore calls independence is a mistake.

They have made the situation a whole lot worse by overiding thr Regional Government in Catalan.

[Old_Geezer]

On the contrary, they should not automatically have been allowed to leave, but that section of the UK, their views would have been made known, and a debate could follow based on that.

[New Judge]

This is an old argument, Gromit, aired on copious occasions before the Scotland vote.

I can only repeat the views I put forward then. The Scots have no more right to independence than do Cornwall, Liverpool or the City of London. They are all part of the United Kingdom and a bilateral break up of a sovereign state should be endorsed by the majority of the population of the entire country, not just the breakaway region. Of course it is extremely difficult to prevent an area breaking away should it so wish but Scottish independence was supposed to be by agreement and some of the conditions the Scots set out (which could not have been achieved other than by agreement) would have had a serious impact on the entire UK. It was a constitutional issue for which the government should have sought the agreement of the entire population.

Devolution has been a disastrous exercise promoting friction between component parts of the UK and was bound to lead to calls for full Independence from those parts. What's often overlooked with "devolved powers" is that they are just that - devolved. But although the tasks are devolved the responsibilities are ultimately retained by central government and the powers can be regained if necessary. Instead devolution seems to have become seen as simply a stepping stone to even further autonomy.

[BlackadderV]

Certain southern states wished to break away from the USA in 1861 and look what happened there.