Sir Keir Starmer Under, Fresh...
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Will These Changes Make Us Look Less Like The Land Of Milk And Honey?
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No doubt the anti British will be along soon to tell us why we should let all and sundry in and give them our hard earned.
No doubt the anti British will be along soon to tell us why we should let all and sundry in and give them our hard earned.
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Actually a recent ruling by the ECJ might make these changes in some sense viable:
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This story didn't get nearly as much attention as it deserved on this site. I'm not entirely sure why, perhaps it was just never picked up on I guess, although I suppose I could have started the discussion myself.
One thing that story did show is that benefits tourism isn't confined to the UK, and a lot of the richer European countries have been suffering from it, albeit to a far lesser extent than is often believed. Indeed, until that ruling there had been a lot of decisions going against the German/ French/ UK governments on this sort of thing, and it was becoming a bit of a mess. The ruling above has the potential to set things straight.
As regards Cameron's proposals, I'd be worried that they are going a bit too far. Four years is a long time and could penalise someone, for example, who came here to this country with the legitimate intention to work, but had the bad luck to choose a job in a company that went under not long afterwards. Benefit tourism -- people deliberately exploiting this system -- remains a very rare phenomenon, so measures that can catch the unlucky along with the guilty ought to be avoided.
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This story didn't get nearly as much attention as it deserved on this site. I'm not entirely sure why, perhaps it was just never picked up on I guess, although I suppose I could have started the discussion myself.
One thing that story did show is that benefits tourism isn't confined to the UK, and a lot of the richer European countries have been suffering from it, albeit to a far lesser extent than is often believed. Indeed, until that ruling there had been a lot of decisions going against the German/ French/ UK governments on this sort of thing, and it was becoming a bit of a mess. The ruling above has the potential to set things straight.
As regards Cameron's proposals, I'd be worried that they are going a bit too far. Four years is a long time and could penalise someone, for example, who came here to this country with the legitimate intention to work, but had the bad luck to choose a job in a company that went under not long afterwards. Benefit tourism -- people deliberately exploiting this system -- remains a very rare phenomenon, so measures that can catch the unlucky along with the guilty ought to be avoided.
Its a deal to stay in europe....yeah right, good idea.
We stay in europe and these people will still flood here from africa, asia etc, let alone europe and the eussr will still make demands for billions and on it goes
theres a hell of a lot of people want out of europe so we can reclaim at least some of our country back without deals on benefits for people we dont even want here and would have to stay in the eussr to get....blokes an idiot if he thinks people cant see the nonsense in that.
We want our country back and we want to make our own laws and rules on who can and cant come here and claim benefits etc etc etc
We stay in europe and these people will still flood here from africa, asia etc, let alone europe and the eussr will still make demands for billions and on it goes
theres a hell of a lot of people want out of europe so we can reclaim at least some of our country back without deals on benefits for people we dont even want here and would have to stay in the eussr to get....blokes an idiot if he thinks people cant see the nonsense in that.
We want our country back and we want to make our own laws and rules on who can and cant come here and claim benefits etc etc etc
"Benefit tourism -- people deliberately exploiting this system -- remains a very rare phenomenon"
are you serious ??????
lucky i didnt have a mouth full of breakfast, it would be all over my screen by now
people have been flooding into this country for decades purely because of the benefits, and they have been working it, fiddling it and stealing from it for that time also.
are you serious ??????
lucky i didnt have a mouth full of breakfast, it would be all over my screen by now
people have been flooding into this country for decades purely because of the benefits, and they have been working it, fiddling it and stealing from it for that time also.
Yes, I am serious. The idea that there are "floods" of benefit tourists is a ridiculous hyperbole, not worth taking seriously. I hope that Cameron is successful in tackling the problem as it exists, but exaggerating its scale helps no-one and could even be harmful, because that exaggeration would then lead to more severe measures being adopted than are necessary.
As much as you might not want to believe it, a great many people come to this country and bring nothing but skills and an honest desire to use them, and immigration does indeed provide significant benefits. What we want to do is to maintain those benefits while curbing the disadvantages. That's not going to happen if we fail to recognise the benefits and massively hype up the disadvantages.
As much as you might not want to believe it, a great many people come to this country and bring nothing but skills and an honest desire to use them, and immigration does indeed provide significant benefits. What we want to do is to maintain those benefits while curbing the disadvantages. That's not going to happen if we fail to recognise the benefits and massively hype up the disadvantages.
It depends on the manner of control. A cap as I argued elsewhere is too arbitrary, and anyway can't really be met.
Baz -- I could say the same for you, you're being naive if you believe all the bile spewed forth by those on the far right. A more important point that you have evidently overlooked is that over 300,000 people a year are leaving this country. Cutting immigration to what I'm assuming you'd hope to be essentially zero won't stop people leaving, and those people are also carrying away skills, money etc etc with them. The worst damage that can be done to this country is then through zero-tolerance immigration. Which, incidentally, also include foreign students who certainly do bring skills and benefits to this country at all levels. A minority, indeed! Not even close.
There is no point in pretending that immigration policy in this country has been even close to perfect for decades, but there is room for a sensible debate that doesn't include panic and lies, from either side of the argument, and your description of floods of what I suppose you would characterise as, essentially, leeches is as far from the truth as it is possible to be.
Baz -- I could say the same for you, you're being naive if you believe all the bile spewed forth by those on the far right. A more important point that you have evidently overlooked is that over 300,000 people a year are leaving this country. Cutting immigration to what I'm assuming you'd hope to be essentially zero won't stop people leaving, and those people are also carrying away skills, money etc etc with them. The worst damage that can be done to this country is then through zero-tolerance immigration. Which, incidentally, also include foreign students who certainly do bring skills and benefits to this country at all levels. A minority, indeed! Not even close.
There is no point in pretending that immigration policy in this country has been even close to perfect for decades, but there is room for a sensible debate that doesn't include panic and lies, from either side of the argument, and your description of floods of what I suppose you would characterise as, essentially, leeches is as far from the truth as it is possible to be.
"but there is room for a sensible debate "
bit late now dont you think ? horse stable door bolted are few words that spring to mind...
everybody that comes here one way or another wants to keep their identity and culture.......the very things that a lot on here are happy to see the rest of us lose so these people get what they want....and people like you still think only a minority come here for benefits etc...laughable.
You just dont get it do you...the word was out ages ago that we are a soft touch in all respects, benefits is just another one of the soft touches, thats why theyve been flooding in here by any means possible....theyve been and are still treating us like mugs.....and will continue to do so.
Stop mass immigration and benefits and watch the queues tumble once the jungle drums spread the message !
bit late now dont you think ? horse stable door bolted are few words that spring to mind...
everybody that comes here one way or another wants to keep their identity and culture.......the very things that a lot on here are happy to see the rest of us lose so these people get what they want....and people like you still think only a minority come here for benefits etc...laughable.
You just dont get it do you...the word was out ages ago that we are a soft touch in all respects, benefits is just another one of the soft touches, thats why theyve been flooding in here by any means possible....theyve been and are still treating us like mugs.....and will continue to do so.
Stop mass immigration and benefits and watch the queues tumble once the jungle drums spread the message !
Some of the many lies in your argument can be seen in the link above. The idea that somehow it is only the UK who is suffering from this problem, for example. Then of course there is the argument over severity. Totally not true what you are saying, in any respect.
As to the soft touch argument... the rules on benefits have been tightened significantly in recent years, and that was going on long before IDS got his hands on the system too. Benefit fraud is still a problem of course, but hardly one confined to immigrants. Indeed it's more serious among Britons.
It's an outdated, backward and awfully blinkered view you have on immigration and immigrants, anyway, baz, although I'm sure that you'll come back with some reasoned response about how you're crying from laughing so hard, or the usual bile you spew forth. Immigration policy can and should be changed, but that change must recognise the undeniable benefits that immigration brings to this country at the same time as addressing the problems. Anything else will damage the country.
As to the soft touch argument... the rules on benefits have been tightened significantly in recent years, and that was going on long before IDS got his hands on the system too. Benefit fraud is still a problem of course, but hardly one confined to immigrants. Indeed it's more serious among Britons.
It's an outdated, backward and awfully blinkered view you have on immigration and immigrants, anyway, baz, although I'm sure that you'll come back with some reasoned response about how you're crying from laughing so hard, or the usual bile you spew forth. Immigration policy can and should be changed, but that change must recognise the undeniable benefits that immigration brings to this country at the same time as addressing the problems. Anything else will damage the country.
It would seem from the YouGov chart below that the majority wish a ban on immigrants receiving benefits until they have been in this country for a certain number of years.
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jno et al, figures often prove nothing as they are manipulated to whatever cause is using them, and you know very well the Government dont keep a tally.
However, just because Governments, rather conveniently, dont keep figures does not mean there is not a problem, we simply dont know the size of it.
So the pair of you seemingly denying there is a problem is equally as laughable, neither of you can prove otherwise either!
It is high time the Government start keeping tabs on people entering the country, if for no other reason than security.
However, just because Governments, rather conveniently, dont keep figures does not mean there is not a problem, we simply dont know the size of it.
So the pair of you seemingly denying there is a problem is equally as laughable, neither of you can prove otherwise either!
It is high time the Government start keeping tabs on people entering the country, if for no other reason than security.
There were two guys giving out various figures to questions on radio 2 just now and some of them were shocking, by far the biggest thieves are still non eu...theyve offered to come back with figures to the questions that they had none to hand.
I heard all i needed to...dont need to wait for the rest
I heard all i needed to...dont need to wait for the rest
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