Why The Need To Wash Their Dirty Linen In Public?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2867736/Shaming-West-Devastating-report-reveals-horrific-extent-CIA-torture-covers-Britain-s-role.html

Pretty damming stuff, but who can gain from making this report public, except our enemies?

[anotheoldgit]

If some of the leftie thinking was alive during WW2 we would never have sent our bombers over Germany.

[jim360]

It's not really about protecting the rights of terrorists as much as it should be about preserving our own values. Protecting democracy by abandoning it is the worst form of hypocrisy. Never mind the fact that torture doesn't work (in general; obviously sometimes it does but the point is that it's unreliable). It's good that we have standards and that we hold ourselves/ our representatives to account. And yes it should be made public.

In the fight against terrorism we shouldn't abandon our values. If nothing else, what higher measure of success can there be for a terrorist than to bring crashing to the floor all the principles of western society?

[retrocop]

Bringing the 9/11 tower crashing to the floor of Western society perhaps ?

[jim360]

"If some of the leftie thinking was alive during WW2 we would never have sent our bombers over Germany."

Perhaps this wouldn't have been an entirely bad thing. Bombinv for military gain is one thing. The action at Dresden and other cities was quite another, performed for no purpose other than to kill thousands and try to terrify the people. Civilian bombing campaigns are among the most shameful chapters in war.

Don't be too hard on the left though. In a war council of five in 1940 it was Attlee and Morrison who supported Churchill in wanting to fight on, rather than Lord Halifax... In World War II everyone owed a debt to each other.

[jim360]

Society isn't destroyed when a building collapses.

[ChillDoubt]

In the fight against terrorism we shouldn't abandon our values.
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Thing is, we tend to lose sight of them for a little while when we see innocent aid workers having their decapitated heads placed onto the backs of their lifeless bodies.
I'm happy for the thumbscrews and red hot pokers to come out if it means so many innocents won't be wiped out in a plane in a terrorist attack or run down and have their head almost hacked off in broad daylight in the UK.
As I said, these are fanatics fuelled by religious fervour, a totally different breed to any other kind of terrorist we've encountered before.

[jim360]

In the face of such atrocities it's not surprising that some, indeed many, lose sight of their values as you put it. What bothers me more is that those who don't lose sight of their values seem to get so much criticism.

[sandyRoe]

Would any of the supporters of torture, seeing as they think it's effective, be prepared to see the police use it in their dealings with ordinary decent criminals?

[retrocop]

I suppose if I was a German soldier up to my neck in snow and wondering when Ivan was going to attack and do unspeakable things to me if I survive,and then, I find out that Dresden, where my wife and family live has been razed to the ground, by a fire bomb attack My morale would sink and I would be inclined to want to pack up and go home. Don't forget ,in Germany, as well as Great Britain it was civilian labour that provided the materiale to wage war.

[ChillDoubt]

What bothers me more is that those who don't lose sight of their values seem to get so much criticism.
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Probably because they would generally be the last to roll up their sleeves and defend democracy when the excrement collides with the air conditioning.

[retrocop]

What is a " decent" criminal and do they commit atrocities on a large scale sandy?

[jim360]

The problem with that argument retrocop is that it's utterly wrong. It never had that effect. If anything quite the opposite. What greater cause to fight on than revenge against a vile enemy who slaughtered your family.

Didn't work on the British either. No amount of blitz ever broke our spirits, of citizens or soldiers.

[ChillDoubt]

Would any of the supporters of torture, seeing as they think it's effective, be prepared to see the police use it in their dealings with ordinary decent criminals?
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Not sure what an 'ordinary decent criminal' is? Is that someone who goes to prison for tax evasion, a 'decent' crime?
Would have been apt for Mark Bridger to have been water boarded/cattle prodded in order for him to tell April Jones parents what he did with the poor little mite's body, but really only a death sentence would suffice.

[retrocop]

So the 3000 odd victims of 9/11 were not members of society when their lives were destroyed?

[sandyRoe]

I think it was Jim Prior coined the phrase to differentiate between the ordinary criminals and political ones in NI.
If it's accepted that it's OK to torture some suspects, why not all?

[jim360]

Really, cd? That's a massive presumption and unjustified for a number of reasons. Not least because in a sense defending democracy is precisely what such people are trying to do. Like I said earlier defending democracy by abandoning it is hypocrisy and therefore not really much of a defence. Better to defend by preserving it, as far as possible, and I don't see how torture achieves anything other than providing a cheap thrill for sadists.

If democracy needs my help to defend it then it is already dead.

[retrocop]

jim360
This is leaving the thread a bit. I don't think there is any comparison between the morale of the Tommy at the retreat of Dunkirk and the German Wermacht's retreat from Russia.The Tommy's didn't endure frost bite, poor weather, transport problems, unsuitable clothing and lack of food. You never saw any Germans winking and giving the thumbs up to the news cameras on their retreat and yes both countries civilians were being bombed at the same time. When you know your country is losing a war your morale tends to sink also when it is still be bombed to hell.

[ChillDoubt]

If democracy needs my help to defend it then it is already dead.
--------------------
Ah, but you're happy for millions of soldiers and civilians to die before you in order that it prevails? Typical lefty view i.e. "I'm happy for others to fight for and preserve democracy but don't dare ask me to do such a thing, I'm enjoying the benefits of it and pontificating far too much to do that".

Never a truer word spoken.....:

“It is the Soldier, not the minister
Who has given us freedom of religion.
It is the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the Soldier, not the poet
Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer
Who has given us freedom to protest.
It is the Soldier, not the lawyer
Who has given us the right to a fair trial.
It is the Soldier, not the politician
Who has given us the right to vote.
It is the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.”

As I said jim, when the chips are down......

[retrocop]

Chilldoubt
I give up on this thread. I don't believe the lefty Clement Atlee- ites on this site would defend their country for any reason !! their agenda seems to be to bring it to it's knees.

[jim360]

I wondered if it would turn into personal attacks.

No I would not be happy for that to happen. However it's not going to anyway; and if it did I would be more useful at the back than in the front lines. If it got to a point where I had nl choice but to pick up a gun then the cause would be already lost. I'm no soldier. I admire those who are .

But then this petty infighting is also the sort of thing that terrorists would celebrate.

Our standards and values must be preserved as far as possible. That isn't happening at the moment. Everyone should want that situation to change fast.