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Are The Dutch Wrong To Have A Traditional Festive Character Called Black Pete?
152 Answers
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Would it be more acceptable for them to recruit only black people to play his part?
Or why don't the black population join in the fun and whiten their faces? I am sure the whites wouldn't take offence.
Would it be more acceptable for them to recruit only black people to play his part?
Or why don't the black population join in the fun and whiten their faces? I am sure the whites wouldn't take offence.
Answers
Can someone please tell me what is wrong with portraying black people? I’ve seen several opera singers made up to look like Japanese people, several made up to look like Egyptians, actors made up to look like Indians, etc, etc., but when it comes to making up to look like black people it’s a no go area. As I said on another thread it’s almost as though black...
19:07 Tue 23rd Dec 2014
Slapshot
You know how annoyed you get at 'everything' (a bit of an overstatement, I believe) being labelled as 'racist'? Well, I hope you understand that the anger you feel is exactly the same as the anger that others feel about perceived racism.
You have every right to be angered by accusations of racism, which doesn't override the anger of those who do make those accusations.
Personally, I don't really find the Black Pete character that much of a big deal - there are much worse things going on in the world right now. And it should also be remembered that in terms of social justice and equality, the Dutch a league divisions in front of many European countries...
You know how annoyed you get at 'everything' (a bit of an overstatement, I believe) being labelled as 'racist'? Well, I hope you understand that the anger you feel is exactly the same as the anger that others feel about perceived racism.
You have every right to be angered by accusations of racism, which doesn't override the anger of those who do make those accusations.
Personally, I don't really find the Black Pete character that much of a big deal - there are much worse things going on in the world right now. And it should also be remembered that in terms of social justice and equality, the Dutch a league divisions in front of many European countries...
Slapshot
I've just reread my post to -Talbot-.
Yes, I am saying that the Dutch are perpetuating a racist stereotype, but that doesn't necessarily make them racist.
People should remember that Black Pete is a character which first appeared hundreds of years ago. It would be extremely unlikely for that character to chime exactly with current racial interpretations.
I've just reread my post to -Talbot-.
Yes, I am saying that the Dutch are perpetuating a racist stereotype, but that doesn't necessarily make them racist.
People should remember that Black Pete is a character which first appeared hundreds of years ago. It would be extremely unlikely for that character to chime exactly with current racial interpretations.
I don't get annoyed at everything... that's Aog and Mikey ;0) I'm not an angry person Honest!!
What does get my back up is stuff like this where simple common sense goes flying out the window to allow the PC brigade to take over, much of the "nonsense" we see in society would not exist if common sense and simple harmony took over, we're all the same no matter what colour we're painted.
What does get my back up is stuff like this where simple common sense goes flying out the window to allow the PC brigade to take over, much of the "nonsense" we see in society would not exist if common sense and simple harmony took over, we're all the same no matter what colour we're painted.
Only if you are the kind of person who looks up something in Google to make a point, because he realises that off the top of his head, he cannot think of any equivalent of Black Pete.
As I said on page one I think we have been here before (or I'm having a Déjà vu moment) I also mentioned witch doctors.................none of it offends me. I think those that get offended on behalf of others cause mor e discord than is necessary.
I'm thinking my blck mates are a totally different kettle of fish to you, sp. I could tell you tales that would make your hair curl.
As I said on page one I think we have been here before (or I'm having a Déjà vu moment) I also mentioned witch doctors.................none of it offends me. I think those that get offended on behalf of others cause mor e discord than is necessary.
I'm thinking my blck mates are a totally different kettle of fish to you, sp. I could tell you tales that would make your hair curl.
-Talbot-
As you don't know me, I think it might be a little presumptuous to assume you know what will and won't shock me. In the same way that I would not know what would shock you.
I would suggest that it would be difficult to accurately determine anyone's true character simply from posts on AB.
None of us are Poirot.
As you don't know me, I think it might be a little presumptuous to assume you know what will and won't shock me. In the same way that I would not know what would shock you.
I would suggest that it would be difficult to accurately determine anyone's true character simply from posts on AB.
None of us are Poirot.
-- answer removed --
divebuddy
I addressed this earlier, but let me expand.
I do not see any racial connotations in Morris dancers with blackened faces.
I always assumed it had something to do with the tradition of miners (I was wrong - apparently it's a reference to rural workers avoiding their bosses in town by blackening their faces).
If I saw a group of Morris dancers where one had blackened their faces, I would not be fussed at all, because they are not depicting black people in (what I believe) is a derogatory manner.
I addressed this earlier, but let me expand.
I do not see any racial connotations in Morris dancers with blackened faces.
I always assumed it had something to do with the tradition of miners (I was wrong - apparently it's a reference to rural workers avoiding their bosses in town by blackening their faces).
If I saw a group of Morris dancers where one had blackened their faces, I would not be fussed at all, because they are not depicting black people in (what I believe) is a derogatory manner.
-- answer removed --
sp, I haven’t read all the posts but I don’t buy your reason for objecting to what I said. Black people are the only people who make a fuss, en masse, when other people imitate them. Why? You say that white people portray black people with the intention of making them look like fools, so what is the objection to white actors playing Othello, for example? Nothing funny about that. I saw a stage show a while ago where a very talented black actor portrayed, quite brilliantly, a host of Hollywood characters – all white – and the audience thoroughly enjoyed it. Not a complaint to be heard. You and people who think like you take yourselves far too seriously, and you expect everyone else to do the same by kowtowing to your insecurity, but the reality is that you set yourselves apart, and the misguided politically correct who cry foul at every perceived slight serve only to encourage you, in effect endorsing your insecurity. They are doing you no favours. Until people (and this includes you) think of people as people and nothing else, racism will never be extinguished. I’ve told you before, if someone calls you a black ***, agree with him that you’re black, but if you’re not a ***, object.
-- answer removed --
naomi24
You are wrong.
The Chinese American community find Mickey Rooney's character in Breakfast At Tiffany's highly offensive.
Native Americans protest against the appropriation of some of their sacred symbols for fancy dress.
I think the difference with negative stereotypes of black people is that it is (or more accurately, was) so pervasive in U.S. and European culture.
However, it should be noted that this is not universal - there was very little on terms of protest against Robert Downey Jnr blacking up in Tropic Thunder, and I think that's because most people, black and white 'got it'.
I think that part of it is down to the cartoon depiction that white people default to when portraying those of different races.
The black man will have big rubber lips, wide eyes and an Afro.
South East Asians will have buck teeth and one of those paddy field hats.
Indians will sound like Michael Bentine from 'It Ain't Half Hot Mum'.
I have said before, and I reiterate, everyone has a right to feel uncomfortable with anything.
Those who have no idea of what it's like to be black, or white, or handicapped, or elderly, or a woman can have strongly held views on how those groups should feel about things that offend them, but people need to understand that their point of view is theoretical, rather than emotional.
When people tell me how I should feel as a black man, I try to put myself in their shoes and think how it would sound if I were telling a woman how she should feel about something I have no idea of...I find it difficult.
You are wrong.
The Chinese American community find Mickey Rooney's character in Breakfast At Tiffany's highly offensive.
Native Americans protest against the appropriation of some of their sacred symbols for fancy dress.
I think the difference with negative stereotypes of black people is that it is (or more accurately, was) so pervasive in U.S. and European culture.
However, it should be noted that this is not universal - there was very little on terms of protest against Robert Downey Jnr blacking up in Tropic Thunder, and I think that's because most people, black and white 'got it'.
I think that part of it is down to the cartoon depiction that white people default to when portraying those of different races.
The black man will have big rubber lips, wide eyes and an Afro.
South East Asians will have buck teeth and one of those paddy field hats.
Indians will sound like Michael Bentine from 'It Ain't Half Hot Mum'.
I have said before, and I reiterate, everyone has a right to feel uncomfortable with anything.
Those who have no idea of what it's like to be black, or white, or handicapped, or elderly, or a woman can have strongly held views on how those groups should feel about things that offend them, but people need to understand that their point of view is theoretical, rather than emotional.
When people tell me how I should feel as a black man, I try to put myself in their shoes and think how it would sound if I were telling a woman how she should feel about something I have no idea of...I find it difficult.
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