Are The Dutch Wrong To Have A Traditional Festive Character Called Black Pete?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2836013/Police-arrest-60-protesters-Dutch-Christmas-festival-disturbances-traditional-Black-Pete-clowns-blacked-faces.html

Would it be more acceptable for them to recruit only black people to play his part?

Or why don't the black population join in the fun and whiten their faces? I am sure the whites wouldn't take offence.

[sp1814]

I am not sure whether white people have the right to dictate to black people what they can and cannot find offensive.

AOG - do you remember a while ago telling me that because I am not English, I cannot be expected to understand how an Englishman feels about a specific subject. Do you remember that? I do, because I am pretty sure I called you a racist idiot at then time.

However, now I think I understand your point. I don't think it's possible for you to understand how black people feel about white people blacking up.

naomi24 has intimated that it makes black people seem ashamed to be black. It's not that, it's just that when white people black up, it's to make black people look like fools.

[sp1814]

divebuddy

Yes, black people are not ashamed of being black. It's white people dressing up as black people and making us look like fools which we (or rather some of us, I can't speak for all black people obviously) find objectionable.

We have every right to feel what we like about racial stereotyping.

[sp1814]

divebuddy

You wrote:

"Most of the protesters don't look much like traditional Dutch people to me. Perhaps they have chosen the wrong country to live in. There must be an airport/railway station nearby where they could buy a ticket to somewhere they feel more at home."

What makes you think the protestors are immigrants? If they were born in Holland why do you say "Perhaps they have chosen the wrong country to live in"?

It makes it sound as if you look at black people as 'not belonging', of being immigrants even if they are born and bred in their country.

Is that true?

If so, why?

[DTCwordfan]

It hasn't got anything to do with us - it is a long-standing Dutch tradition associated with St Niklaas in early December and beloved by the majority of Dutch people.

Let them sort it out - one must remember that they have one of the most liberal and democratic societies in Europe.

I suppose that the next thing AOG vents his spleen on is our Cornish 'Obby 'Oss as being socially unacceptable as we have red and blue ones but not purple, green or yellow.

[FrogNog]

sp apparently I'm an immigrant because I come from Irish heritage, so you don't stand a chance.
I can see why the Dutch would want to preserve their tradition and as Holland is one of the more progressive countries, I don't think it's done with anything other than seasonal fun in mind.
That said, maybe it's because the character is a jester that offence is taken. Black people do not want to see white people as portraying them as figures of fun. That's understandable when you look at black history.
In this instance, I think on the whole it's harmless and the intention is good. Nobody is stopping black people from blacking up even further and joining in, and the kids see the character as a mythical figure, like I would see a Christmas elf.
I hope they can reach a happy compromise.

[Slapshot]

My Dutch friends think this is a joke.

The Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet is one of the most fun traditional christmas celebrations I've been to anywhere. To put things right, Zwarte Piet is thought to have originated as Moor hence the blackened skin.

Inevitably the hand wringing lefty PC mob in Holland are stirring up a rage against there traditions just as you would expect our hand wringing lefty PC mob to foment a rage in this country just because they can. I think some people need to get a grip on what classifies as racist and what doesn't!!

[jourdain2]

Why on Earth are some people intent on taking offence when none is intended?

[Slapshot]

^^^^ this

[sp1814]

jourdain2

Most people find something offensive.

For instance, I have no problem with swear words at all at all, but just because I don't find swear words offensive or objectionable, I understands that others might, so I mitigate against this by not using profanities in front of people I don't know.

I see a common thread running through threads like this one - "I am not offended by this, and even though someone else has a completely different life to me, with different cultural identifiers, they too should not be offended...because I am not offended".

I don't subscribe to that.

[sp1814]

For instance - AOG has said on a previous thread that he finds the word 'Brits' offensive.

Even though I've never met anyone who is likewise offended by this word, I have been careful not to write it ever since.

This is just good manners.

AOG - sorry for using the word, but I had to, in order to make the point.

If you recall, we were discussing the use of the N word and the word that racists use for Asians (the word that rhymes with lackey), when you revealed that you found the word 'Brits' offensive.

[-Talbot-]

I don't understand how you are racist if you use the word that rhymes with lacky. Surely it depends on how you use it?

[sp1814]

divebuddy

You've made your points and I thank you for your input.

[FrogNog]

sp while I agree that you have every right to be offended by stuff, as do I and a lot of what I see offends me, that's not the issue here.
The question is whether the minority, who are offended, have the justification to amend the behaviour of the majority, who are unoffended.
In some cases, absolutely, such as in the completely correct choices that we should not use the N word or the P word. Few decent people would argue with that.
My job demands that I choose my argument carefully. I think that's applicable in this case and I hope you can see that.
The black and white minstrels are not okay in my book but I'm struggling to see the bad inferences in this festival if I'm honest.

[sp1814]

-Talbot-

If a new pretty young girl of Asian descent started working in your office, and someone asked who Naima was, would you say, "She's the pretty little p**i who works over by John's office".

Nah...I think social convention tells us that would be inappropriate. In 1974, not every who used the 'P' word to describe those of Asian descent were racist. Definitely not.

However in 2014, I don't know of any educated non-racist who uses that term. And I doubt whether this has anything to do with 'PC'.

It's probably more to do with good manners.

[whiskeryron]

sp1814, as I have pointed out before in another post, rather than being racist I have always believed that the Black & White Minstrels were actually showing how very talented black people are & have always been in show business by blacking up to emulate them. What part of this very old English saying don't you understand '' Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery ''- The Phrase Finder
www.phrases.org.uk › Phrase Dictionary -

[sp1814]

FrogNog

I disagree.

I think that minorities have every right to protest if they believe in a cause.

During the 60s gay Americans stood up for themselves and demanded a change in laws after the Stonewall riots. You can be sure that this was not something that the majority wanted...but were the gay campaigners wrong?

What campaigners want to do is influence hearts and minds. If I felt strongly about a subject that I believed in, I would (and indeed, have) work with activists in order to raise awareness. I would not consider whether it be better to keep quiet because mine was a minority view.