Why 2015 Will Not Be A Very Good Year For All Those Who Are Anti-English.

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/11316078/Battle-of-Agincourt-and-Winston-Churchill-remembered-in-year-of-English-celebration.html

Forget those who would wish the words England or the English to be no longer mentioned, 2015 is the year of the English, so forget the British and even the Brits.

[jennyjoan]

WHAT - NOT

[DTCwordfan]

Far more important than the Battle of Agincourt (that being a successful, older version of the Charge of the Light Brigade in being a perceived triumph out of adversity) is that we also have Magna Carta (1215) to celebrate and for all Brits, the Battle of Waterloo (1815) and of course the 75th of Dunquerque.

[anotheoldgit]

andy-hughes

Is it not more the case that some people think that 'Englishness' does not denote some sort of pre-ordained ownership of a section of the planet, but that it is simply a (seriously fortunate) accident of birth ///

So since it is a just a (seriously fortunate) accident of birth, we have no right to defend it, and its should be open to all those not so fortunate, good job we didn't hold that believe back in 1940.

[jim360]

Obviously it's an accident of birth. I didn't choose to be born British (or even English). No-one else did either. I don't think that saying so implies that it's not worth fighting for. In 1940 I'd have thought we were fighting for something more than just a birthright, since our very freedom was threatened as well as that of Europe. And, for that matter, beyond.

Anyway, enjoy 2015 AOG and others, you do indeed have plenty to celebrate about English history next year. The only problem is if you do so at the cost of forgetting all the bad that went along with it.

[Zacs-Master]

DT, the 1215 Magna Carta was a bit of a disaster and only lasted 3 months. It was only when it was reissued under Henry iii in 1216 that it became a cornerstone of our constitution.

[DTCwordfan]

Its birthday though is considered as 1215, Zacs, I haven't got onto the politics of that - this period of history (1095-14550 is one of my favourite ones, for the reason of all the political machinations that went on between the English, Scots, Welsh and French (Normans and Burgundians), and, to a lesser extent, the Irish.

[mushroom25]

DTC, operation dynamo could hardly be described as a triumph, whether borne of adversity or not - as Churchill himself said later "we must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."[

[Zacs-Master]

Yes but the clauses in the 1215 one encouraged civil war whereas the barons support of Henry under the reissue in 1216 united the rebels against foreign invasion so the 1215 issue is hardly anything to celebrate.

[DTCwordfan]

I agree with you, mushroom...just as Agincourt does not 'make' the 100 Years War. Zac, you are arguing with the converted; however, it's 1215 which the history books ascribe the event to, not least as it laid down that the king came under the Law...... I could argue that the 1225 version was the more important one, not least as it's that one that underpins our Parliament today with the three remaining clauses, not least,

"No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any other way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgement of his equals or by the law of the land.

To no one will we sell, to no one deny or delay right or justice."

[sandyRoe]

Agincourt, wasn't there a war crime so atrocious committed there that even Shakespeare mentioned it in one of his history plays?

[Zacs-Master]

In finest QI tradition the DT, it's always good to educate the masses by bringing out the real truth.

[Zacs-Master]

Not that 'the masses' will see it. Smoking gun. Hole in big toe.

[anotheoldgit]

jim360

/// No doubt the Anti-English will have plenty to look forward to in 2015...///

Including you it would seem Jim, why else would you trouble yourself going to all that research ?

[Zacs-Master]

Probably the same reason you posted your question AOG.

[jim360]

Because it amused me. Apparently being "pro-English" means not understanding irony.

[jno]

I think Churchill would be surprised to learn he wasn't a British prime minister.

[Zacs-Master]

Well, Bonnie Prince Charlie was Italian.

[andy-hughes]

AOG - you are adding something on to what I said in order to make a point about the war generation.

What I said was - "Is it not more the case that some people think that 'Englishness' does not denote some sort of pre-ordained ownership of a section of the planet, but that it is simply a (seriously fortunate) accident of birth ///

To which you responded -

" ... and its should be open to all those not so fortunate ..." which is putting words in my mouth, isn't it? I did not mention the country being 'open' to anyone. I know immigration is a serious hobby-horse of yours, but inventing a viewpoint from me in order to shoehorn your viewpoint in is not really in the spirit of debate is it?

"... good job we didn't hold that believe back in 1940."

But as jim360 points out, that is an entirely different scenario, and you know that as well as I do.

When I spoke about 'defending' in the context of this debate, I was referring to the actions of people like the EDL who think this is 'their' country and they can prevent legal immigrants from living in it because they take issue with their skin colour.

That is hardly comparable with a monster force intent on subjugating the entire world a piece at a time, in which case everyone, including me, would fight to defend those hard-won freedoms against an invading enemy like the Nazis.

But that's not the point I made is it - so if you want to bring World War 2 into the discussion, feel free, but don't put words in my mouth in order to argue with me about something I didn't say.

Thank you,

[DTCwordfan]

and I am sure AOG will be APPALLED in his indefatigable way that Winston flirted with becoming a Muslim......

[anotheoldgit]

jim360

/// I'd have thought we were fighting for something more than just a birthright, since our very freedom was threatened as well as that of Europe. And, for that matter, beyond. ///

Birthright, country and one's freedom is all one of the same, an Englishman fighting for his birthright and freedom for the country of his birth, that being England for an Englishman, as is France for the French man etc, etc.

There are some who have never seen Africa but are still proud to be called i.e. African/American.