Bbc Suggests That Britain Was 'worse Than The Nazis'.

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2952971/BBC-s-insult-hero-pilots-Veterans-rage-Dresden-coverage-attacks-Britain-worse-Nazis-ignores-RAF-s-sacrifice.html

Why do we constantly find the need to criticise and condemn ourselves, for our past actions?

[jim360]

One other thing I would like to add is that there is a fair amount of misinformation about Dresden. I first learned of it through the "Horrible Histories" books -- which, while aimed at children, is meant to be reasonably accurate -- which include accounts of allied planes deliberately machine-gunning citizens, and also provides a casualty target of somewhere close to 60,000-70,000 (from memory, it may even have given a higher figure). Both of these are entirely false, but certainly coloured my earlier thoughts about it.

You're right that "war crimes" are about legality, not morality. Another thing that gets lost in the debate.

[DaisyNonna]

er, no point in prosecuting dead bomber crews.

[tonyav]

I don't see what the problem is, I thought we were trying to win a war.

[Zacs-Master]

Exactly Tony, bloody do Gooders re-writing the psychology and necessities of war.

[jim360]

No, I don't think so, divebuddy. In the second half of the war or so, we were on the attack. I didn't mean "aggressors" in a pejorative sense, just a technical one.

[Zacs-Master]

He's explained he was talking pejorativly. Jeez.

[naomi24]

divebuddy to Jim, // In the overall scheme of things, to call us "aggressors" in WW2 is just ridiculous.//

I beg to differ, It's not just ridiculous - it's insulting too.

[jim360]

Ho hum.

We were on the attack at the end of WW2. That is all that I meant. Yes it was liberating, yes it was totally necessary. It was still an attack. Overall an entirely justified one. Insulting? Stuff and nonsense.

I didn't mean to use the word "aggressors" as if we were the bad guys. I just meant it as in, we were on the front foot, we had control over proceedings and so on.

[jim360]

I don't agree that it was wrong. If I did think it was wrong I would either concede the point or (perhaps more likely) skulk away and hide.

If you had wanted an apology, that "I've met men like you" rant didn't exactly inspire me to give one.

[lindapalmara]

Boys, boys stop behaving like a load of yobs! Stay on subject or go to the nearest town centre pub and join a punch up!

[jim360]

That's not quite what I said, though. I didn't say that Bomber command were war criminals, I said that they were "war criminals" with the speech marks. As in, if anyone involved in the bombing of Dresden was a war criminal, then a) it would certainly not be the bomber crews themselves, and b) it would have to be the leaders at Bomber command. I then went on to agree with you that it was a legal not a moral point; that some of what went on at Dresden has been greatly exaggerated; that I had at one point fallen for this exaggeration, etc.

The single point on which we disagree substantially, so far as I can tell, is my use of the word "aggressor". I suppose there's also the matter of my competence to talk about this at all, but I certainly have rather more than just a faint idea. And I'm aware of the context, at least as much as it's possible to be for someone born many years after the event.

With reference to the interesting statistic that the British killed more Frenchmen than the Germans did British citizens in bombing raids, for example, this was almost inevitable as France at the time was an occupied country, with therefore legitimate military targets, and inevitably that would lead to "collateral damage". If I have a point, I think it's not so much that this was absolutely wrong, but that it is something we should be very sad about. Ditto the deaths of German citizens.

The lesser of two evils is still an evil, and still something to be avoided if at all possible. The horrors of War are such that we felt forced to do some horrific things ourselves. I don't think that is ever something to be celebrated, or to be dismissed quickly with an attitude of "well, they started it, so it's their own damn fault".

I would have made a very poor crewman in a Lancaster. Thankfully I never had to be.

[lindapalmara]

Sorry divebuddy I didn't mean you. I also was appalled at the casualties which occurred by our pilots. I'm was in the Air Force for a short time and was aware that our boys were not given the recognition they deserved. Not even mentioned by Churchill after the war, Harris vilified, and it took until recently to get a memorial to our brave men.