Crosswords1 min ago
Andreas Lubitz
As bad as the terrorists who flew the 9/11 planes?
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He also could have just taken an overdose.
You're arguing over the niceties of what the main motivation was or whether he could have killed more people by flying into a town etc etc.
Really whether it was premiditated suicide + mass murder, or premeditated mass murder + suicide, it amounts to the same thing.
You're right - we'll never fully understand his motivations, so in the absence of that knowledge, we can only look at the facts of what he actually did - deliberately fly a plane full of people into the side of mountain, after to planning to do so some time in advance.
You're arguing over the niceties of what the main motivation was or whether he could have killed more people by flying into a town etc etc.
Really whether it was premiditated suicide + mass murder, or premeditated mass murder + suicide, it amounts to the same thing.
You're right - we'll never fully understand his motivations, so in the absence of that knowledge, we can only look at the facts of what he actually did - deliberately fly a plane full of people into the side of mountain, after to planning to do so some time in advance.
Even then there are degrees of premeditation. The narrative that appears to be emerging is that he was suffering from long-term depression but that it was no longer visible. However, recently he'd received some news about his sight that implied that he would have to leave piloting. That's potentially devastating news, difficult to cope with at the best of times.
Feeling depressed he was suddenly presented with an opportunity to kill himself by crashing the plane he was in. Quite an easy one, in a way. No-one to stop you, once the door is closed. And at the same time you can feel somewhat detached from the process. Plane heads down, crashes, explodes, dead. Over quickly, gravity is doing the work, and maybe not much time between seeing the mountain and crashing into it. The passengers are, in effect, incidental and a tragic consequence -- it has not been established that he was deliberately trying to kill them and take as many with him as possible. The talk from the past about "leaving a mark", in this narrative, could be something of a red herring making this look planned when really that is more to do with mood swings.
Speculation, perhaps -- but a comparison with 9/11 is equally speculative, and also rather dangerous. It attaches a social stigma to mental illness that is extremely unhelpful. If anyone with mental illness is treated as equivalent to a potential terrorist then what message does that send out to the depressed? Don't talk about it else you will be locked up to protect the rest of society? Almost certainly this is not what is meant, and the idea of potentially suicidal people in charge of planes is one we obviously want to combat -- but the way to do that is to try and work on treating the condition, providing better support, better safeguards alongside and less of the stigma that goes along with it. Not more. Not comparisons with terrorists. Absolutely not.
Feeling depressed he was suddenly presented with an opportunity to kill himself by crashing the plane he was in. Quite an easy one, in a way. No-one to stop you, once the door is closed. And at the same time you can feel somewhat detached from the process. Plane heads down, crashes, explodes, dead. Over quickly, gravity is doing the work, and maybe not much time between seeing the mountain and crashing into it. The passengers are, in effect, incidental and a tragic consequence -- it has not been established that he was deliberately trying to kill them and take as many with him as possible. The talk from the past about "leaving a mark", in this narrative, could be something of a red herring making this look planned when really that is more to do with mood swings.
Speculation, perhaps -- but a comparison with 9/11 is equally speculative, and also rather dangerous. It attaches a social stigma to mental illness that is extremely unhelpful. If anyone with mental illness is treated as equivalent to a potential terrorist then what message does that send out to the depressed? Don't talk about it else you will be locked up to protect the rest of society? Almost certainly this is not what is meant, and the idea of potentially suicidal people in charge of planes is one we obviously want to combat -- but the way to do that is to try and work on treating the condition, providing better support, better safeguards alongside and less of the stigma that goes along with it. Not more. Not comparisons with terrorists. Absolutely not.
// If anyone with mental illness is treated as equivalent to a potential terrorist then what message does that send out to the depressed? //
It sends a clear message as follows - Don't plan to kill a load of innocent people if you're planning on killing yourself. That would make you no better than a terrorist.
It sends a clear message as follows - Don't plan to kill a load of innocent people if you're planning on killing yourself. That would make you no better than a terrorist.
They may have found his body, it may give some clues as to why he did it.
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Again, the mistake is in ascribing any plan to it. It was more likely to be opportunism, really. He didn't plan for the main pilot to leave for the toilet, for example.
The evidence we've seen so far points to a man who is depressed and suicidal, but also sadly successful at hiding it. At the critical moment, he was left in control of his own fate and took the opportunity. Sadly, 150-odd people joined him.
The evidence we've seen so far points to a man who is depressed and suicidal, but also sadly successful at hiding it. At the critical moment, he was left in control of his own fate and took the opportunity. Sadly, 150-odd people joined him.
Ludwig - //It sends a clear message as follows - Don't plan to kill a load of innocent people if you're planning on killing yourself. That would make you no better than a terrorist. //
Again, the supposition is that a degree of planning went into this action.
It could have been as simple as a sudden flash of decision, with no thought for the other people involved - and for the suicidal mind, that level of introspection is not only probable, it's virtually guarenteed.
But again - speculation - I am going to stop it now.
Again, the supposition is that a degree of planning went into this action.
It could have been as simple as a sudden flash of decision, with no thought for the other people involved - and for the suicidal mind, that level of introspection is not only probable, it's virtually guarenteed.
But again - speculation - I am going to stop it now.
// If anyone with mental illness is treated as equivalent to a potential terrorist then what message does that send out to the depressed? //
Nobody can seriously suggest that "anyone with mental illness is treated as equivalent to a potential terrorist", as there are stats to show that something like 1 in 3 people suffer some kind of mental illness at some point in their lives. Lubitz wasn't anyone with a mental illness, he was very unusual.
It would be a fair guess that many if not most "actual terrorists" were mentally ill, but that most people who are mentally ill are no more "potential terrorists" than anybody else ...
Terrorism often involves killing innocent people, whereas mental illness doesn't. When mental illness does involve crashing a planeful of innocent people, though, it's a thin line between that and terrorism - especially when many terrorists are clearly mentally ill. I'm not sure that many of the victims' families would care to spend the time debating the finer issues like this ...
Nobody can seriously suggest that "anyone with mental illness is treated as equivalent to a potential terrorist", as there are stats to show that something like 1 in 3 people suffer some kind of mental illness at some point in their lives. Lubitz wasn't anyone with a mental illness, he was very unusual.
It would be a fair guess that many if not most "actual terrorists" were mentally ill, but that most people who are mentally ill are no more "potential terrorists" than anybody else ...
Terrorism often involves killing innocent people, whereas mental illness doesn't. When mental illness does involve crashing a planeful of innocent people, though, it's a thin line between that and terrorism - especially when many terrorists are clearly mentally ill. I'm not sure that many of the victims' families would care to spend the time debating the finer issues like this ...
People who are normal but suffering from low mood have no trouble in reaching out and finding people to cheer them up and successfully pull put of the dip, with that help (friends rallying around is an ego-boost, in itself).
People who get clinical depression often struggle to work out the toot cause: life is otherwise going just fine but this is precisely what makes reaching out that bit trickier - it will appear nonsensical to your close friends.
Rather than face that awkwardness, some might prefer to mask the symptoms but maintaining a happy mask is a major energy drain plus you feel guilt because you are basically lying to your nearest and dearest. Ultimately some will 'do themselves in' in an effort to 'unburden' those closest to them, which is a great tragedy as most of them will know nothing of it until they discuss it after it's too late.
Those who choose train, bus or truck are thoughtless about the driver of the vehicle but it is stretching that sense of thoughtlessness in Lubitz's case. Other methods were open to him so I concur with the earlier comment about psychosis/psycopathy. But I am not a psychiatrist, so obligatory fistful of salt with the above.
People who get clinical depression often struggle to work out the toot cause: life is otherwise going just fine but this is precisely what makes reaching out that bit trickier - it will appear nonsensical to your close friends.
Rather than face that awkwardness, some might prefer to mask the symptoms but maintaining a happy mask is a major energy drain plus you feel guilt because you are basically lying to your nearest and dearest. Ultimately some will 'do themselves in' in an effort to 'unburden' those closest to them, which is a great tragedy as most of them will know nothing of it until they discuss it after it's too late.
Those who choose train, bus or truck are thoughtless about the driver of the vehicle but it is stretching that sense of thoughtlessness in Lubitz's case. Other methods were open to him so I concur with the earlier comment about psychosis/psycopathy. But I am not a psychiatrist, so obligatory fistful of salt with the above.
@joeluke
Actually, yours is something of a 'trap' question:
If I say yes, then I am equating a seemingly random act which enveigled people from multiple nations with a pre-meditated attack against the people of one nation (the terrorists had no way of knowing international visitors would be on site, on the day), which doesn't seem to be an equivalence.
If I say no, then I will come across as saying what happened was "less bad", which would also be wrong.
"All comparisons are odious", as the saying goes.
Taking it out on innocent bystanders because your eyesight is going and they will take away the one thing in life you really love doing is wrong, full stop. Comparisons with terrorism don't help deal with the aftermath. Don't take that too personally.
Actually, yours is something of a 'trap' question:
If I say yes, then I am equating a seemingly random act which enveigled people from multiple nations with a pre-meditated attack against the people of one nation (the terrorists had no way of knowing international visitors would be on site, on the day), which doesn't seem to be an equivalence.
If I say no, then I will come across as saying what happened was "less bad", which would also be wrong.
"All comparisons are odious", as the saying goes.
Taking it out on innocent bystanders because your eyesight is going and they will take away the one thing in life you really love doing is wrong, full stop. Comparisons with terrorism don't help deal with the aftermath. Don't take that too personally.
chaptazbru2 - //I think what he did was vile, there were schoolchildren and babies on board and he must have know this surely ... //
He possibly did not think about them in the same way that you or I would.
Suicide is not the act of a rational mind, so rational thought is not usually present at the time.
He possibly did not think about them in the same way that you or I would.
Suicide is not the act of a rational mind, so rational thought is not usually present at the time.
I was thinking about this, and a better comparison is with those people (usually Americans because of access to weapons) who take a machine gun or two down to Mcdonalds - or perhaps the workplace they were fired from for being a weirdo, and start shooting indescriminately.
It's suicide and mass murder combined, motivated by some screwed up festering hatred or grudge the gunman against society in general.
I believe In this case the aircraft was simply a convienient weapon of choice for the individual concerned.
It's suicide and mass murder combined, motivated by some screwed up festering hatred or grudge the gunman against society in general.
I believe In this case the aircraft was simply a convienient weapon of choice for the individual concerned.
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