Foreign Students Banned From British University Science Courses?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/foreign-students-banned-from-british-university-science-courses-because-they-might-learn-how-to-make-nuclear-and-chemical-weapons-10141815.html

If such a ban is legal and I fail to see how it can be, why just foreign students?

/// The number of Western citizens who have gone to join the Isis militant group is now estimated to have reached 3,400, according to NBC. ///

[bookbinder]

I don't think that the question of 'legal' comes into it. A university is just like any other business: it can accept or refuse any customers that it chooses.

[Zacs-Master]

Pros: it stops the education / creation of foreign terrorists.
Cons: it could lead to a shortage of qualified scientists in the UK if it extends to British students.
Difficult decision I suppose.

[jim360]

So far as I can tell the scheme essentially implies that if you are a non-EU student wishing to study any of the relevant subjects (which includes Physics, apparently) then by default you'll need a background check. I find this slightly surprising, to say the least -- firstly because honestly, what's the point, If you wanted to learn how to make a nuclear bomb or what have you then there are resources for that outside university, and also because anyone who had terrorist intentions would probably prefer a rather quicker route to getting to the point than a three+ year university course.

The idea of extending it to everybody is just, well, staggering. This amounts to saying to students that if you wish to study physics or Nuclear physics then that in itself is reason to conduct a background check. Really? Wow.

[jim360]

Here's an all-time classic: Since 9'11, The US Government has felt it necessary to introduce more stringent background checks on foreign students applying for similar subjects, including physics. Well, fair enough I suppose -- although there are signs that this has led to a reduction in the number of foreign physicists etc. working in the US. At any rate, background checks, while perhaps OTT, are an understandably cautious reaction.

But to suggest background checks for anyone wishing to buy guns...

[anotheoldgit]

bookbinder

/// I don't think that the question of 'legal' comes into it. A university is just like any other business: it can accept or refuse any customers that it chooses. ///

I don't so. take the bed and breakfast accommodation owners who tried to refuse those two gay blokes.

[naomi24]

//The scheme was launched by the government in 2007//

They kept that one quiet.

[Peter Pedant]

.

//I don't so. take the bed and breakfast accommodation owners who tried to refuse those two gay blokes.// AOG

welcome to the madhouse Jim. AG thinks your cge math degree is on a par with a bed and breakfast - but surely you get more for your money in the average College on the Cam ?

I had the usual end of the year phone call from mine (TH) - he was reading Chemical Engineering and the fee was £25 000 per year for a foreign student. Four year degree

[anotheoldgit]

Can anyone decipher Peter Pedant's post?

Thank you.

[mrs_overall]

I didn't realise that learning how to make nuclear and chemical weapons was on the syllabus of degree courses these days

[mrs_overall]

AOG - sorry, I can't help you with that one.
I initially read it and wondered if I had overdone my prescription meds this morning '-)

[venator]

It's a break with British tradition - some of the best dictators trained at Sandhurst.

I reckon we shouldn't have a ban - any terrorist in training would just take his money somewhere else.

We should accept them, and monitor them and their connections - as Sun Tzu may have said, "keep your friends close and your enemies closer"

[EDDIE51]

Universitys depend on foreign students fees to keep going. Fees for overseas students are a lot more than for UK students and there are no loans to be made out of taxpayers money. Science courses are the most expensive and so the most lucrative for the University. Banning them will mean a big loss in the university's income and you know where that will be made up from.

[mrs_overall]

1ozzy, I have to go now. If you manage to post the link, I will watch it later

[mrs_overall]

Sorry, wrong post

[jim360]

It's not a difficult post to decipher, but I suppose it does have the advantage of provided a good excuse not to say anything more substantial, eh?

The reference to the "end of the year phone call" is (probably) about how most/ all Cambridge (and probably also Oxford) colleges tend to ask alumni if they wouldn't mind awfully donating to the college -- the telephone calls are placed by current students, so gives us oldies the chance to chat the new lot.

And then the first bit is about your bringing in the B&B story. Difficult to see if it really compares; one was a private business but subject to equalities legislation, and one is a university subject to one heck of a lot of legislation on top of all that -- but in as much as you're right AOG to challenge bookbinder's claim that Universities are free to accept/ refuse customers as they choose you are right. I think most Universities would rather not have this sort of check carried out, since foreign students indeed bring a huge amount of money (as an example, see the student Peter Pedant was talking to).

So far as I can see, this is a relatively simple background check just to be on the safe side. What good it actually does I don't know, because after all if the fear is that knowledge is being passed on then there are other (easier, and less expensive!) avenues to doing that for potential terrorists; and for that matter there's no guarantee that a student won't attend University for perfectly innocent reasons and then get radicalised after he has finished university. The blanket treatment adopted in the US has reduced the number of physicists you actually do want to work in the country, although I'm not sure there has been a firmly established causal link yet.

I can't say I'd enjoy the idea of undergoing such a check myself, although if it remains just a small amount of paperwork at no expense to myself and doesn't take too long to carry out then I'd see it as a minor irritation rather than something that just puts me off even bothering. All the same, this sort of measure looks rather like a way of being seen to do something without actually achieving anything.

Of all the potentially dangerous activities associated with terrorism, a degree in physics seems somewhat low down in priorities.

[Peter Pedant]

Thanks Jim

you see - AOG it is all about money .... simples

that is AOG if you are foreign and rich - you get into a uni

( but you knew that really didnt you ?)