That's a good point Jim, even a Tory like me acknowledges that a decent opposition is necessary. Perhaps it's time for someone to start a new party, Labour clearly are unable to shake the reds out and dump that union connection. However as mikey will now doubt point out soon, this is a cyclic thing and I think they'll recover, eventually. last time they had to basically impersonate the Tories to get in, next time that may not be enough, I think they need to disband, break the union connection and reform as a real alternative. At the moment I can't see them winning for at least 2 more general elections.