What Do You Think?

[Svejk]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3207681/Mother-took-five-children-Manchester-Syria-denounces-ISIS-desperate-come-home.html

[-Talbot-]

OP
What Do You Think?




I think I have lost the will to live!

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - " ...I've actually seen you describe yourself as the elder statesman of AnswerBank - and that was years ago."

That was entirely tongue-in-cheek as anyone who knows me at all would know.

I do not possess a fraction of the ego that I am accused of possessing - I am not interested in enhancing, diminishing, or even acknowledging a 'reputation' on here - I save that for other areas of my life.

[andy-hughes]

vetuste - "Are you confusing tedious longueurs with reasoned argument, Andy?"

No, but thanks for asking.

[naomi24]

andy-hughes, //...as anyone who knows me at all would know. //

... and you don't have a reputation. Mmmm...

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - "andy-hughes, //...as anyone who knows me at all would know. //

... and you don't have a reputation. Mmmm... "

That's not having a reputation!!!

If you wish to see yourself as 'having a reputation' on here - and your posts suggest that you do, then feel free but excuse me if I don't feel the need to join you!

[naomi24]

andy-hughes, it's you who doesn't wish to see it. Like it or not you have a reputation - or perhaps more than one.

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - I thought you were off to chat elsewhere - don't let me hold you up.

[naomi24]

You're not- but thanks for the consideration.

[anotheoldgit]

andy-hughes

" So why should a 'traitor' to this country enjoy the safety of this country, when her preferred chosen country, begins to receive some flack?"

/// I suggest that your view is an over-simplification based on - as I assume we have agreed - no actual factual evidence. ///

Where is the over-simplification, in what I put?

She is a 'traitor' seeing that she left her country, the country which supported and looked after her, her husband and her children, to go and join an enemy of ours, people that have and will still bring harm to this country and it's people.

Then you wonder why many on here, (yes Andy many, not just the 'few', 'a posse', or 'a tiny minority', 'agitators', a 'select couple of others', or even 'like-minded cohorts', as you wish to describe your debating opposition), criticise your very strange view points.

[andy-hughes]

AOG - "Then you wonder why many on here, (yes Andy many, not just the 'few', 'a posse', or 'a tiny minority', 'agitators', a 'select couple of others', or even 'like-minded cohorts', as you wish to describe your debating opposition), criticise your very strange view points."

As I have pointed out times without number - I will debate mine and others' viewpoints until the cows come home, and thoroughly enjoy doing it.

What I will not sit still for (and you of all people should understand this!) is personal abuse, barracking, nasty comments, veiled references to my mental health, and so on.

I don't confuse the two - and I know you don't either!

[andy-hughes]

AOG - "She is a 'traitor' seeing that she left her country, the country which supported and looked after her, her husband and her children, to go and join an enemy of ours, people that have and will still bring harm to this country and it's people."

Regarding her as a 'traitor' is a point of view which I think is a little over-stated - but I am not, and never have, defended her actions.

All I have defended is her right to have made a mistake, because we can all do that, some are massive as in this case - but to be the compassionate society that we defend, we must be willing to accept that a mistake appears (and I do stress 'appears') to have been made - and look to try and salvage something from it.

[anotheoldgit]

andy-hughes

/// Regarding her as a 'traitor' is a point of view which I think is a little over-stated - but I am not, and never have, defended her actions. ///

So are you saying that she is not a traitor?

/// All I have defended is her right to have made a mistake, because we can all do that, some are massive as in this case - but to be the compassionate society that we defend, we must be willing to accept that a mistake appears (and I do stress 'appears') to have been made - and look to try and salvage something from
it. ///

So she has just 'made a mistake' which we should accept as just that?

So with no idea of what she has been up to while a member of ISIS, we should just put it all down to her making a mistake, and welcome her back to the fold?

Then we can all sleep safely in our beds, strong in the knowledge that we still belong to a compassionate society, until of course we then find out later that harmless woman had not made a mistake but she was all part of a conspired ISIS plot, to make sure we didn't sleep safely in our beds.

[Peter Pedant]

// So are you saying that she is not a traitor? //

er traitress I think - yes I am - she doesnt fit the criteria of the 1351 Treason Act - sorry. For a start we are not at war with Syria.

and she hasnt conspired with the kings enemies - ( o God why do I take these points seriously .... I should just say 'yeah yeah AOG have a cup of tea'

[andy-hughes]

AOG - "andy-hughes

/// Regarding her as a 'traitor' is a point of view which I think is a little over-stated - but I am not, and never have, defended her actions. ///

So are you saying that she is not a traitor?"

I am saying that I think that term is emotive, without proof, or at least evidence other than she has gone abroad with her husband. as I understand from the news report, she taught English to the children there.

/// All I have defended is her right to have made a mistake, because we can all do that, some are massive as in this case - but to be the compassionate society that we defend, we must be willing to accept that a mistake appears (and I do stress 'appears') to have been made - and look to try and salvage something from
it. ///

So she has just 'made a mistake' which we should accept as just that?"

Initially, certainly, until any evidence comes forward that she does represent a threat to security, I have no evidence I am aware of to suggest that she is anything other than a woman who misguidedly followed her husband, and then realised the mistake she had made.

"So with no idea of what she has been up to while a member of ISIS, we should just put it all down to her making a mistake, and welcome her back to the fold?

Then we can all sleep safely in our beds, strong in the knowledge that we still belong to a compassionate society, until of course we then find out later that harmless woman had not made a mistake but she was all part of a conspired ISIS plot, to make sure we didn't sleep safely in our beds. "

I can see that you are determined to shoehorn this situation into an IS plot to plant a mole in our culture, or worse a suicide bomber.

And you may be entirely correct - but I don't think we can over-ride our basic human compassion.

as I said at the beginning - we cannot decide that people are not worthy of a chance to put things right simply because someone arbitrarily decides that her 'sin' is beyond redemption.

Yes I am idealistic - but that makes me happier than being paranoid.

[naomi24]

//For a start we are not at war with Syria. //

The people she went to join aren't fighting for Syria.

[Just-Jude]

Everyone deserves a second chance, that's why we have probation and community service.

We are not like those gung ho Americans who think that every black man travelling on a train in Europe is a terrorist.

[agchristie]

Just Jude // Everyone deserves a second chance, that's why we have probation and community service//

Including all those on death row in the US including the likes of Tsarnaev the Boston Bomber? Gung ho response or are some enemy acts only punishable by death?

[Just-Jude]

agchristie, this woman went to Syria looking for a better life due to racism in the UK. She's not a suicide bomber or terrorist and has done nothing illegal. She made the wrong decision and is entitled to come back. It's just like anyone moving abroad, not liking it and returning home.

[agchristie]

Just Jude, I was responding to your comment generally that everyone deserves a second chance. Does Jihadi John fall into this category?

[Svejk]

Just-Jude
/// We are not like those gung ho Americans who think that every black man travelling on a train in Europe is a terrorist.///

To be fair, carrying a Kalashnikov was quite a strong indication of intent. Pray tell us how you would have handled the situation?