Crosswords1 min ago
Poland Reject Eu's Migrant Quota.
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In light of the Paris attacks and with the first batch of 'refugees' due to land in this country tomorrow, should Britain now reconsider letting them in?
In light of the Paris attacks and with the first batch of 'refugees' due to land in this country tomorrow, should Britain now reconsider letting them in?
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"We will have to wait for a full reveal of who the Paris terrorists were. But finding a Syrian passport does not necessarily mean he was Syrian."
Indeed not, Gromit. Nor is the nationality of any of the perpetrators relevant. Why does any of this matter? Thousands of "citizens" of every country in Europe have gone to join ISIS. So it's likely that every capital city in Europe has citizens who would commit acts in their capitals similar to those the "French" Islamists have done in Paris. It's the ideology which matters, Don't you disagree?
Indeed not, Gromit. Nor is the nationality of any of the perpetrators relevant. Why does any of this matter? Thousands of "citizens" of every country in Europe have gone to join ISIS. So it's likely that every capital city in Europe has citizens who would commit acts in their capitals similar to those the "French" Islamists have done in Paris. It's the ideology which matters, Don't you disagree?
V e,
// Thousands of "citizens" of every country in Europe have gone to join ISIS. So it's likely that every capital city in Europe has citizens who would commit acts in their capitals //
It is. The ones that have gone to fight in Syria are not a threat to us in Europe. The main threat are those that have stayed behind. The OP question is about barring refugees because they are a threat. I don't follow that arguement. Terrorists could quite easily come here not as refugees but as tourists, visitors or legal employment migrants. You wouldn't bar all them because they might be infiltrated by terrorists, so we shouldn't bar people who are genuinely fleeing the wars.
There is the possiblity that European nationals who have trained with ISIS or al qaeda will sneak in as refugees. But before this refugee crisis they trained and returned. The 7/7 bombers had trained in Afghanistan. If they want to get in they will, barring refugees won't solve anything.
// Thousands of "citizens" of every country in Europe have gone to join ISIS. So it's likely that every capital city in Europe has citizens who would commit acts in their capitals //
It is. The ones that have gone to fight in Syria are not a threat to us in Europe. The main threat are those that have stayed behind. The OP question is about barring refugees because they are a threat. I don't follow that arguement. Terrorists could quite easily come here not as refugees but as tourists, visitors or legal employment migrants. You wouldn't bar all them because they might be infiltrated by terrorists, so we shouldn't bar people who are genuinely fleeing the wars.
There is the possiblity that European nationals who have trained with ISIS or al qaeda will sneak in as refugees. But before this refugee crisis they trained and returned. The 7/7 bombers had trained in Afghanistan. If they want to get in they will, barring refugees won't solve anything.
Good for Poland!
The day Mr. Cameron agreed to take in 20,000 refugees was the day he proved himself to be a gutless little weed.
So maybe they are the “more needy” coming from the refugee camps, but that means they need more from the British taxpayer. They will get the housing, therefore leapfrogging over the Brits who stay on social housing lists for years, they will need medical attention on our NHS, their children will need a school place. It just goes on and on. I expect they will even get the bus fare to get to the mosque!
They will of course, continue to breed, (once again on our NHS), so in a few years that 20,000 may have doubled. And if just ONE of these people is (or becomes) radicalised, then it is one too many.
The day Mr. Cameron agreed to take in 20,000 refugees was the day he proved himself to be a gutless little weed.
So maybe they are the “more needy” coming from the refugee camps, but that means they need more from the British taxpayer. They will get the housing, therefore leapfrogging over the Brits who stay on social housing lists for years, they will need medical attention on our NHS, their children will need a school place. It just goes on and on. I expect they will even get the bus fare to get to the mosque!
They will of course, continue to breed, (once again on our NHS), so in a few years that 20,000 may have doubled. And if just ONE of these people is (or becomes) radicalised, then it is one too many.
“Refugees and terrorists are not the same thing.”
Quite correct. But since we are unable to tell one from the other (see Naomi’s post immediately following, which I believe is correct as far as anybody knows) and since, even if we could, we would be unable to discriminate against one in favour of the other, it hardly matters whether they are the same thing or not. There may be lots of terrorists amongst French and Belgian citizens (though I notice that none of those mentioned have names like Jacques Cousteau or Hercules Poirot) but there's no need to add to the throng.
“Wow - you don't think much of the Poles, do you? Maybe have a read of this ...”
It is totally inappropriate to compare the contributions made by Polish people in WW2 to their situation now. The EU has brought about one or two changes in the past seventy years. One of its alleged aims is towards “ever closer union” to prevent, so it goes, atrocities like those of WW2 ever occurring again. So the Poles no longer need to come to the UK to fly Spitfires. Instead they come to be plumbers. All fine and dandy. Except that large numbers of people being foisted on Poland (and elsewhere) would not pee on the UK if it were on fire. They would, however, happily travel here to plunder our wealth in one way or another.
“Britain isn't participating in the quota system to begin with..”
It matters not a jot, Ikky. The millions arriving in mainland Europe will not stay where they if they are "allocated" to Romania, Slovenia, Slovakia or even Poland. That is not their game plan. Furthermore, the EU will not countenance for too long a raft of “second tier” citizens amongst its midst who do not have the same rights as everybody else. They will (probably sooner rather than later) be granted the full rights of EU citizens which means, Schengen opt-out or not, they will be free to travel to and settle in the UK. They will simply have to show their passports at Gatwick. All one can hope is that the UK leaves the EU before that happens.
“They are guaranteed genuine refugees, and over a 5 year period. Are you suggesting we take none at all ?”
Yes. It's time for this country’s “long and proud history of providing shelter etc. etc…” drivel and garbage to come to an end. We are being taking for a ride big time and, regardless of the threat oft terrorism, it’s about time it stopped and for the needs and the requirements of citizens of the UK to regain priority.
Sorry I've nothing original of my own to add, but the earlier contributions leave such scope for comment.
Quite correct. But since we are unable to tell one from the other (see Naomi’s post immediately following, which I believe is correct as far as anybody knows) and since, even if we could, we would be unable to discriminate against one in favour of the other, it hardly matters whether they are the same thing or not. There may be lots of terrorists amongst French and Belgian citizens (though I notice that none of those mentioned have names like Jacques Cousteau or Hercules Poirot) but there's no need to add to the throng.
“Wow - you don't think much of the Poles, do you? Maybe have a read of this ...”
It is totally inappropriate to compare the contributions made by Polish people in WW2 to their situation now. The EU has brought about one or two changes in the past seventy years. One of its alleged aims is towards “ever closer union” to prevent, so it goes, atrocities like those of WW2 ever occurring again. So the Poles no longer need to come to the UK to fly Spitfires. Instead they come to be plumbers. All fine and dandy. Except that large numbers of people being foisted on Poland (and elsewhere) would not pee on the UK if it were on fire. They would, however, happily travel here to plunder our wealth in one way or another.
“Britain isn't participating in the quota system to begin with..”
It matters not a jot, Ikky. The millions arriving in mainland Europe will not stay where they if they are "allocated" to Romania, Slovenia, Slovakia or even Poland. That is not their game plan. Furthermore, the EU will not countenance for too long a raft of “second tier” citizens amongst its midst who do not have the same rights as everybody else. They will (probably sooner rather than later) be granted the full rights of EU citizens which means, Schengen opt-out or not, they will be free to travel to and settle in the UK. They will simply have to show their passports at Gatwick. All one can hope is that the UK leaves the EU before that happens.
“They are guaranteed genuine refugees, and over a 5 year period. Are you suggesting we take none at all ?”
Yes. It's time for this country’s “long and proud history of providing shelter etc. etc…” drivel and garbage to come to an end. We are being taking for a ride big time and, regardless of the threat oft terrorism, it’s about time it stopped and for the needs and the requirements of citizens of the UK to regain priority.
Sorry I've nothing original of my own to add, but the earlier contributions leave such scope for comment.
I believe that the justification for denying entry to migrants is not the Paris attacks (which I think were perpetrated by local jihadists), Gromit, but the observation that the majority of them are young Muslim men. This carries risk: if such a large number of young Western Muslims hate the country of their birth, should we not expect that proportionally at least as many foreign-born Muslims who settle here will hate us too? Please, note: I'm employing the European "we" in this post.
Let's take Germany. Say 800,000 migrants arrive this year? Of which 250,000 are male Muslims in their twenties and thirties, perhaps? Of which 1% are maybe ISIS plants or jihadist sympathisers? How do you think Frau Merkel interprets her duty to protect her citizens? Clearly not the same way as I think she should. What's your opinion?
Let's take Germany. Say 800,000 migrants arrive this year? Of which 250,000 are male Muslims in their twenties and thirties, perhaps? Of which 1% are maybe ISIS plants or jihadist sympathisers? How do you think Frau Merkel interprets her duty to protect her citizens? Clearly not the same way as I think she should. What's your opinion?
"It's time for this country’s 'long and proud history of providing shelter etc. etc…' drivel and garbage to come to an end.".
Somebody should raise a question on this , NJ. It's not that the tradition is unfounded, but that the comparison between what has happened in the past is in any way comparable to what we're seeing today, even when the "migrants" arrived in the unwelcome form of armed invaders. The idea that the population churn of the last thirty odd years is a European norm is reconstructed history like the Seacole narrative.
To quote Mark Steyn (commenting on changes to educational curriculums in Germany and Holland to avoid offending the sensibilities of the mimophants):
"Not only is immigration changing Europe's present and its future, it's even changing its past".
Somebody should raise a question on this , NJ. It's not that the tradition is unfounded, but that the comparison between what has happened in the past is in any way comparable to what we're seeing today, even when the "migrants" arrived in the unwelcome form of armed invaders. The idea that the population churn of the last thirty odd years is a European norm is reconstructed history like the Seacole narrative.
To quote Mark Steyn (commenting on changes to educational curriculums in Germany and Holland to avoid offending the sensibilities of the mimophants):
"Not only is immigration changing Europe's present and its future, it's even changing its past".
mushroom25> I merely pointed out that [the Poles] need not have [rejected the quota], because any quota they are allocated will all have scarpered elsewhere within a few weeks.
Which implies that the Poles should think nothing of inflicting refugees - possibly including terrorists - upon on the rest of Europe, which is a crass insult.
Which implies that the Poles should think nothing of inflicting refugees - possibly including terrorists - upon on the rest of Europe, which is a crass insult.
@Talbot
Embarassingly, the organiser of the attack, the one who was shot in the dawn raid, was one such, who was born in Belgium/France, got to wherever ISIS train recruits, carried out atrocities, on video, in Syria and, later, walked/rode his way across Europe, undetected by the authorities who *were* on the lookout for threats, such as him.
I'd go as far as to suggest someone with the know-how could try some data visualization to make a timeline of the rate of flow of migrants, for the past 20 years, to see if there is a "hockey stick" level of increase and to see how coincident this is with the activities of Daesh.
Or is it just the media coverage which has increased exponentially?
Embarassingly, the organiser of the attack, the one who was shot in the dawn raid, was one such, who was born in Belgium/France, got to wherever ISIS train recruits, carried out atrocities, on video, in Syria and, later, walked/rode his way across Europe, undetected by the authorities who *were* on the lookout for threats, such as him.
I'd go as far as to suggest someone with the know-how could try some data visualization to make a timeline of the rate of flow of migrants, for the past 20 years, to see if there is a "hockey stick" level of increase and to see how coincident this is with the activities of Daesh.
Or is it just the media coverage which has increased exponentially?
@vetuste
Well, put it this way. I've not been paying attention to migration for 30 years and my CFS makes daily life difficult enough without trawling through newspaper archives *personally*.
I meant only that someone, somewhere, has proper stats and could knock up a graph in Excel or similar in... hmm, if they spend time typing up all the source citations, to keep skeptics happy then it could be a few hours. They'll want paying.
It was just a suggestion.
Well, put it this way. I've not been paying attention to migration for 30 years and my CFS makes daily life difficult enough without trawling through newspaper archives *personally*.
I meant only that someone, somewhere, has proper stats and could knock up a graph in Excel or similar in... hmm, if they spend time typing up all the source citations, to keep skeptics happy then it could be a few hours. They'll want paying.
It was just a suggestion.
@vetuste_ennemi
Yes, that's the point I was making but I am reckoning that an infographic with indisputable stats, all referenced to ONS statistics etc. would be perfect for distribution on FB/Twitter, to ones more Liberal-minded friends.
If you say it in words, it unavoidably resembles all the things said by racists for years and years and they'll just pull the plug on you. The assumption being that racists say things with no factual basis and also begin to react to the presence of only handfuls of people not like them (ie decades ago) whereas Liberals probably wouldn't feel fearful until they were the ones outnumbered ten to one.
Basically, I don't want to lose the friends who give me useful information about non-politics type things: science, technology, music and so on. They have a very limited tolerance towards racist jerks, so I don't want to end up becoming one.
Yes, that's the point I was making but I am reckoning that an infographic with indisputable stats, all referenced to ONS statistics etc. would be perfect for distribution on FB/Twitter, to ones more Liberal-minded friends.
If you say it in words, it unavoidably resembles all the things said by racists for years and years and they'll just pull the plug on you. The assumption being that racists say things with no factual basis and also begin to react to the presence of only handfuls of people not like them (ie decades ago) whereas Liberals probably wouldn't feel fearful until they were the ones outnumbered ten to one.
Basically, I don't want to lose the friends who give me useful information about non-politics type things: science, technology, music and so on. They have a very limited tolerance towards racist jerks, so I don't want to end up becoming one.
@sandyRoe
//The brightest and the best of Polish youth seem to have left their homeland. Could this proposed quota of refugees not have helped to replace those who have gone? //
Not unless they've brought their degree certificates with them.
Immigrants always ended up slotted in at the bottom end of the pyramid and some of them are already resigned to the fact that they will be doing manual labour for the rest of their lives and put all of their hopes into their children's lives. It's the second generation ones who end up being doctors or lawyers or something high paid.
I never had an iota of that level of ambition. In my day you got relentless stick for being clever or a "swot", which left a lasting tendency to think I was being big-headed to even dream of such heights and hold myself back.
//The brightest and the best of Polish youth seem to have left their homeland. Could this proposed quota of refugees not have helped to replace those who have gone? //
Not unless they've brought their degree certificates with them.
Immigrants always ended up slotted in at the bottom end of the pyramid and some of them are already resigned to the fact that they will be doing manual labour for the rest of their lives and put all of their hopes into their children's lives. It's the second generation ones who end up being doctors or lawyers or something high paid.
I never had an iota of that level of ambition. In my day you got relentless stick for being clever or a "swot", which left a lasting tendency to think I was being big-headed to even dream of such heights and hold myself back.
