ChatterBank0 min ago
French Nazis 'trumped'?
Answers
They must have seen the Paris murders as a godsend and hoped it would lead to an election breakthrough
09:05 Mon 14th Dec 2015
Mikey, I know you don’t agree with me but I’m at a loss to understand what you do agree with. Although you’re very vocal in your support of Muslims, I find it difficult to believe that you sincerely support misogyny, homophobia, paedophilia, fascism, and all the other appalling injustices that Islam embraces. Is that really what you want the western world to accept without reservation? Somehow I don’t think so.
Paisley used to fulminate against 'the Pope of Rome'(the anti-Christ in his view) and the evil empire he led. He'd sometimes qualify his rants by saying he didn't hate individual Catholics. Sadly, many of his followers missed that nice point.
There's much in Islam that doesn't sit easily with liberal western thinking but that doesn't mean that every follower is itching for the chance to don a suicide vest.
It seems to me that there are some here who believe that they are.
There's much in Islam that doesn't sit easily with liberal western thinking but that doesn't mean that every follower is itching for the chance to don a suicide vest.
It seems to me that there are some here who believe that they are.
Immigration:
-A reduction in legal immigration to France from the current 200,000 a year to 10,000.
-A ban on automatic immigration rights to join a spouse or family member residing legally in France.
-An end to the European Schengen Area, which gives free cross-border movement, and reinstatement of border checks.
-A toughening of the requirements to get French citizenship, which the FN says should not be automatic, while insisting that applicants demonstrate a strong commitment to France and its language.
-Zero tolerance of illegal immigration and an end to illegal immigrants’ rights to remain in France if they have been in the country for a given period.
-Priority to be given to French citizens over foreigners for jobs and for social housing.
-Banning dual nationality for non-Europeans, which would particularly affect citizens of former French colonies in Africa.
Justice and security:
-The justice department to be given a 25% increase in funding.
-The creation of 40,000 new prison places.
-The deportation of foreign criminals once new treaties have been negotiated with their countries so that sentences can be served abroad.
-A referendum to give the French public the choice between reinstating full-life terms or the death penalty.
-Police to have “legitimate defence” when using their firearms or using force against suspects.
-Doubling the number of police officers in France’s anti-crime squads.
-Giving police greater power to tap phones and Internet communications.
Culture and the French language:
-Maintained support for France’s cultural exceptionalism, which favours the French audio-visual industry against foreign (mostly US) competition.
-Aggressive promotion of the French language internationally to restore French influence abroad. “Language and power go hand in hand,” reads the party’s manifesto.
-Fighting against the growing ubiquity of English in international standards and filing of patents.
-Overturning laws restricting Internet use, such as legislation against file sharing.
Family:
-Family benefits, including child support, to be only available to French families (or where at least one parent is French).
-Guaranteeing the freedom of women to have abortions.
-Promotion of traditional family values, especially in terms of parenthood. The FN would overturn laws allowing gay marriage and adoption, believing that existing legislation for civil partnerships (PACS) is perfectly adequate.
Europe:
-The FN would seek to re-negotiate all EU treaties in order to claw back national sovereignty.
-Take back full control of the country’s frontiers.
-Establish primacy of national laws over European laws.
-Leave the Euro.
-Create a French agricultural policy and leave the EU’s Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) for which France is, in fact, a net beneficiary.
Foreign policy:
-While rejecting an increasingly harmonious European Union, the FN would like to see the creation of a Pan-European Union of Sovereign States, to include Russia and Switzerland, but specifically not Turkey.
-The creation of a trilateral alliance between France, Germany and Russia.
-The renegotiation of all economic relationships with former colonies (particularly in Africa) in order to force these countries to reduce immigration towards France.
-Help French firms invest in Africa in order to counter growing Chinese, Indian and Latin American influence there.
-Investment to make France a maritime power, in both the private and public sectors, to include new submarines and a second aircraft carrier.
-Promotion of France’s nuclear capability as “the ultimate deterrent”.
Industry, employment and taxation:
-Huge investment in re-industrialisation of France which would be overtly protectionist and counter to the EU’s free trade ethos.
-A toughening of import duties to protect French manufacturers.
-Support, including tax breaks, to small and medium-sized business.
-Simplification of the tax code with an income tax ceiling of 4f 46% for the highest earners; VAT to 5.5%
-A reduction in legal immigration to France from the current 200,000 a year to 10,000.
-A ban on automatic immigration rights to join a spouse or family member residing legally in France.
-An end to the European Schengen Area, which gives free cross-border movement, and reinstatement of border checks.
-A toughening of the requirements to get French citizenship, which the FN says should not be automatic, while insisting that applicants demonstrate a strong commitment to France and its language.
-Zero tolerance of illegal immigration and an end to illegal immigrants’ rights to remain in France if they have been in the country for a given period.
-Priority to be given to French citizens over foreigners for jobs and for social housing.
-Banning dual nationality for non-Europeans, which would particularly affect citizens of former French colonies in Africa.
Justice and security:
-The justice department to be given a 25% increase in funding.
-The creation of 40,000 new prison places.
-The deportation of foreign criminals once new treaties have been negotiated with their countries so that sentences can be served abroad.
-A referendum to give the French public the choice between reinstating full-life terms or the death penalty.
-Police to have “legitimate defence” when using their firearms or using force against suspects.
-Doubling the number of police officers in France’s anti-crime squads.
-Giving police greater power to tap phones and Internet communications.
Culture and the French language:
-Maintained support for France’s cultural exceptionalism, which favours the French audio-visual industry against foreign (mostly US) competition.
-Aggressive promotion of the French language internationally to restore French influence abroad. “Language and power go hand in hand,” reads the party’s manifesto.
-Fighting against the growing ubiquity of English in international standards and filing of patents.
-Overturning laws restricting Internet use, such as legislation against file sharing.
Family:
-Family benefits, including child support, to be only available to French families (or where at least one parent is French).
-Guaranteeing the freedom of women to have abortions.
-Promotion of traditional family values, especially in terms of parenthood. The FN would overturn laws allowing gay marriage and adoption, believing that existing legislation for civil partnerships (PACS) is perfectly adequate.
Europe:
-The FN would seek to re-negotiate all EU treaties in order to claw back national sovereignty.
-Take back full control of the country’s frontiers.
-Establish primacy of national laws over European laws.
-Leave the Euro.
-Create a French agricultural policy and leave the EU’s Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) for which France is, in fact, a net beneficiary.
Foreign policy:
-While rejecting an increasingly harmonious European Union, the FN would like to see the creation of a Pan-European Union of Sovereign States, to include Russia and Switzerland, but specifically not Turkey.
-The creation of a trilateral alliance between France, Germany and Russia.
-The renegotiation of all economic relationships with former colonies (particularly in Africa) in order to force these countries to reduce immigration towards France.
-Help French firms invest in Africa in order to counter growing Chinese, Indian and Latin American influence there.
-Investment to make France a maritime power, in both the private and public sectors, to include new submarines and a second aircraft carrier.
-Promotion of France’s nuclear capability as “the ultimate deterrent”.
Industry, employment and taxation:
-Huge investment in re-industrialisation of France which would be overtly protectionist and counter to the EU’s free trade ethos.
-A toughening of import duties to protect French manufacturers.
-Support, including tax breaks, to small and medium-sized business.
-Simplification of the tax code with an income tax ceiling of 4f 46% for the highest earners; VAT to 5.5%
I think we need to be fairly careful in interpreting this as a "rout", as the BBC would have it. In the first place quite a few of the more important results appear to have been not determined yet -- specifically, the number of regional and territorial councillors the FN has won. Secondly, they did in fact manage to pick up another 800,000 voters between the first and second round, and almost 7 million votes overall. In the UK's 2015 election (with a higher turnout), the winning Conservative party got about 11 million votes, which is not even double the vote share for a "racist, almost Nazi" party (and, of course, the Labour Party's support was even closer in both absolute and proportional terms).
I suppose because the fear was that the FN was going to win a couple of seats then this can be painted as a colossal failure for the party. That's rather harsh, to say the least. They now have the support of about a quarter of the French people (at least the ones who bothered to vote) and, like UKIP, represent a loud voice that is getting royally shafted by a backwards voting system. It's a voice that cannot be ignored for ever.
As to the assertion that the FN viewed the Paris attacks as a "godsend" -- probably more likely that they saw the chance to exploit it politically to bolster their message. That's rather a cynical ploy but on the other hand they'd have been stupid not to exploit it. I hope I'm not being too naive in saying that Marine le Pen and her party will (mostly) still have seen it above all else as a tragedy.
I suppose because the fear was that the FN was going to win a couple of seats then this can be painted as a colossal failure for the party. That's rather harsh, to say the least. They now have the support of about a quarter of the French people (at least the ones who bothered to vote) and, like UKIP, represent a loud voice that is getting royally shafted by a backwards voting system. It's a voice that cannot be ignored for ever.
As to the assertion that the FN viewed the Paris attacks as a "godsend" -- probably more likely that they saw the chance to exploit it politically to bolster their message. That's rather a cynical ploy but on the other hand they'd have been stupid not to exploit it. I hope I'm not being too naive in saying that Marine le Pen and her party will (mostly) still have seen it above all else as a tragedy.
The above post summarises FN policies. I am sure we could all find things in there we support, but then it comes down to whether you think there is a theme running through the whole of it which has its roots, to say the least, in insularity and racial separation. Not quite the FN of old, but I think I "get their drift"
They are also suspected of being funded illegally by outside sources such as the Russian govt (rather ironically)
They are also suspected of being funded illegally by outside sources such as the Russian govt (rather ironically)
jim,, I for one don't deny that the FN are a powerful voice in French politics, and I agree that the term "rout" was not necessarily wholly appropriate.
There is a difference between their situation and UKIP's in the 2015 UK election, though in that in France, admittedly, given a different set of electoral circumstances, large numbers of ordinary voters deserted their party of choice and kept them out. That, actually, is quite democratic. Even in the two regions where the PS withdrew, it still meant legions of voters turning out and doing something which must have been difficult: voting for Sarkozy and co rather merely than abstaining,
There is a difference between their situation and UKIP's in the 2015 UK election, though in that in France, admittedly, given a different set of electoral circumstances, large numbers of ordinary voters deserted their party of choice and kept them out. That, actually, is quite democratic. Even in the two regions where the PS withdrew, it still meant legions of voters turning out and doing something which must have been difficult: voting for Sarkozy and co rather merely than abstaining,
ichk; //The above post summarises FN policies. I am sure we could all find things in there we support, but then it comes down to whether you think there is a theme running through the whole of it.....//
I do, and the theme is 'common sense', and the statement that she, or indeed any French person, would find the slaying of 130 innocent, defenceless people and the wounding of a further 200 in their capital city "a Godsend" is thoroughly reprehensible.
The fact you have made it the "best answer", shows what a twerp you really are, and highlights just who are the real bigots.
I do, and the theme is 'common sense', and the statement that she, or indeed any French person, would find the slaying of 130 innocent, defenceless people and the wounding of a further 200 in their capital city "a Godsend" is thoroughly reprehensible.
The fact you have made it the "best answer", shows what a twerp you really are, and highlights just who are the real bigots.
Naomi...I have said the following many times before and I will say it one last time, for your benefit.
I support the freedom to practise any religion that anyone wants, and that is coming from an atheist. I abhor everybody that uses their faith as an excuse for violence and terrorism. But I don't hold the view that "all Muslims can be terrorists and therefore must be" unlike you who said, some time ago, that when a small minority of Muslims resort to violence, it must be the parents fault because they raised them in the Muslim faith in the first place.
Its up to every individual to pick and choose what part of any religious doctrine and practise that they think is appropriate to them. My parents were fairly strict Catholics. We didn't eat meat on Friday, we did go to Mass every Sunday and they made sure their kids knew their Catechism. But they also viewed the Popes teaching on birth control to be outdated and highly impractical, otherwise I would have had dozen brothers instead of just the three.
Many Christians. mostly but not exclusively American, think that the Grand Canyon is only 6000 years old and that stone age people chased dinosaurs for their dinner. But many, many more view that as risible and therefore ignore it.
Those characteristics that you attribute to the Muslim faith are free to be interpreted as followers of that faith think is appropriate, and not all Muslims regard those unpleasant aspects as an unalienable truth. There are some very decent Muslims and the ones that I have worked with and come across, fall into that category and are just disgusted by the action of terrorists as you and I and every other decent person is.
My "support" as you put it goes to those Muslims, while at the same time I abhor and condemn the extremists, so please don't keep accusing me of
supporting terrorism.
If you are expecting to me lump all Muslims together, you are going to have to wait for a very long time.
Read sandy at 12:20 today and you will see that we are in complete agreement with each other.
As regards the recent French Poll results, many more people seem to abhor the Front National than support it. The French people have spoken Naomi....get used to it.
I support the freedom to practise any religion that anyone wants, and that is coming from an atheist. I abhor everybody that uses their faith as an excuse for violence and terrorism. But I don't hold the view that "all Muslims can be terrorists and therefore must be" unlike you who said, some time ago, that when a small minority of Muslims resort to violence, it must be the parents fault because they raised them in the Muslim faith in the first place.
Its up to every individual to pick and choose what part of any religious doctrine and practise that they think is appropriate to them. My parents were fairly strict Catholics. We didn't eat meat on Friday, we did go to Mass every Sunday and they made sure their kids knew their Catechism. But they also viewed the Popes teaching on birth control to be outdated and highly impractical, otherwise I would have had dozen brothers instead of just the three.
Many Christians. mostly but not exclusively American, think that the Grand Canyon is only 6000 years old and that stone age people chased dinosaurs for their dinner. But many, many more view that as risible and therefore ignore it.
Those characteristics that you attribute to the Muslim faith are free to be interpreted as followers of that faith think is appropriate, and not all Muslims regard those unpleasant aspects as an unalienable truth. There are some very decent Muslims and the ones that I have worked with and come across, fall into that category and are just disgusted by the action of terrorists as you and I and every other decent person is.
My "support" as you put it goes to those Muslims, while at the same time I abhor and condemn the extremists, so please don't keep accusing me of
supporting terrorism.
If you are expecting to me lump all Muslims together, you are going to have to wait for a very long time.
Read sandy at 12:20 today and you will see that we are in complete agreement with each other.
As regards the recent French Poll results, many more people seem to abhor the Front National than support it. The French people have spoken Naomi....get used to it.
Yes khandro no doubt for many the FN's policies are 'common sense' .
We will have to agree to differ on that as what is 'common sense' to one person may be something entirely different to someone else.
As for the Best Answer, sandy's reply summed up rather aptly my own feeling in the absence of, in my opinion, anything remotely pertinent. Tho I might have given it to Jim also. 'Godsend' may be a slight exaggeration, but only a slight one. I am sure sandy did not mean to imply that FN were pleased about the killings, but it is an ill wind. As it is President Hollande did a pretty good job of undermining them with his swift and uncompromising but sensible response. Whether that was partly his aim, who knows
We will have to agree to differ on that as what is 'common sense' to one person may be something entirely different to someone else.
As for the Best Answer, sandy's reply summed up rather aptly my own feeling in the absence of, in my opinion, anything remotely pertinent. Tho I might have given it to Jim also. 'Godsend' may be a slight exaggeration, but only a slight one. I am sure sandy did not mean to imply that FN were pleased about the killings, but it is an ill wind. As it is President Hollande did a pretty good job of undermining them with his swift and uncompromising but sensible response. Whether that was partly his aim, who knows
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