England Flag = racist!?!

[january_bug]

Story 

What do users think about this story?  I know the topic's cropped up in the press before. 

[stevie21]

I don't want to jump on any bandwagons and exagerrate any "facts" but I do think it is the case that people here are afraid to be proud of their heritage for fear of offending someone. PC going too far again.

At the risk of sounding racist (and I don't think I am remotely racist) : if the average Brit goes to visit the Taj Mahal then there'd be heavy pressure on us to fit in, respect others' customs, for women to wear an appropriate outfit etc.
Is there any such pressure for any foreigners visiting (or migrating to) the UK?
Maybe it's just the media but I think that the pressure is again on us to accept others' customs.

[Ward-Minter]

my dear jan bug. I have no answer but I bet you 50p you know what my opinion is. All I will say is.............

 

Land of Hope and Glory,
Mother of the free,
How shall we extole thee,
Who are born of thee,
Wider and still wider,
Shall thy bounds be set,
God who made the mighty,
Make thee mightier yet!!,
God who made thee mighty,
Make thee mightier yet!

[THECORBYLOON]

What is the connexion between a cancer charity and the Cross of Saint George?

[garyyokel]

Gevs1966 - I think that it is accepted that there are some racist connotations associated with St George's cross. I don't like this anymore than anyone else, but sadly it's true. Therefore, in a prison that has a less than good record on race relations, the pins might be misinterpreted. This has nothing to do with PC, Liberalism or wooly jumpers, it's just someone stating a valid opinion that may need to be addressed.

The reason I think that some people are dillusional is because they perceive that they are being persecuted for wearing or flying St George's cross. I don't see it. There are plenty of households in my surrounding area that fly the flag, and I don't know any of them that have been pulled up by the "Liberal Police" that some Abers would have us believe exist. In addition, I regularly display my England during sporting events (the only time that Nation means anything to me) and likewise I haven't experienced any kind of disapproving reactions. If people are afraid of showing Nationalistic Pride, then I think it is because they pay too much attention to none stories such as this one.

[dorothywilso]

My God what HAS happened in England,can one admit to being English and being proud of the fact  or is it up to the ethnic minorities to decide that !I personally will not be dictated to by anyone regarding the land of my birth .

[garyyokel]

But where, Dorothy, is this dictating happening??? Have you personally experienced being told that you cannot say you are English and proud? (And reading it in some sensationalist journo's column doesn't count). Has this got you in trouble with any authorities? Has it stopped you doing what you want?

[Grunty]

There have been instances along these lines that could be interpreted as unnecessary political correctness.

In this case, I suspect that the problem involved staff wearing their own badges on their uniforms, which then ceased to be uniform. 

[garyyokel]

I would agree Grunty that there are a reasonable number of stories that fall into the "Political Correctness Gone Mad" category, but almost invariably they tend to 1) be subject to the interpretation of the reader and/or journalist, and 2) be a minor incident that could hardly amount to a conspiritally coordinated persecution of Englishness.

[ARSENAL]

St. George wasn't even English was he?  So how can it be racist?  It is another example of how pathetic this country is, and how much we are prepared to put our own culture and history 'behind us' just to please other races / religions.  If you are from England you have no right to be proud of your history or culutre or anything like that nowadays.  Well I am, so tough. 

[january_bug]

Very interesting to read the views. 

Interesting that some people who claim to be patriotic are so quick with "This just shows how lame our country is becoming" type comments because of one story from one section of one report on one prison. 

No wonder we have a problem trying to prove that the George Cross is a positive sign of national pride when people are so quick to slate their own home country!

The story, to me, shows that the press (even "respectable" press like the BBC) will jump on one tiny thing because they know it'll get a reaction. 

Really, it does not mean that the whole country is going down the pan.  We all know that we can still wear a George pin/England football shirt/carry a flag if we want to.  It's not an arrestable offence, and some people seem to need to remember that our patriotic civil liberties are not being whipped away from us here, or taken by stealth. 

The arguements used by the prison inspectors were daft, and it's a silly situation, but not, in my opinion, a crisis. 

Apologies for any typos!

[garyyokel]

Nicely put J.Bug.

I think that sensationalist news stories, and the reactions of some people to them, highlight our (i.e. the English's) problems we have with our own national identity. It is time to stop blaming ethnic minorities and minor bureaucratic reports and ask ourselves what really is the problem, if there is one at all.

[squiggle]

Dorothy - It isn't necessarily the ethnic minorities that are dictating wether we should be proud of our heritage. As someone else said, authorities often take this stance on behalf of minorites wether they want them to or not! A discussion about this came up in my (multi-cultural) office, and the only people who thought St George's cross was offensive, were white!

[january_bug]

Well I'm sure we all remember the "well-meaning" white (and probably christian) people who proposed removing bibles from hospital bedsides because it would be offensive to Muslims!!!  Quite why they couldn't just keep books from other religions handy too I don't know.

I find myself asking here "What does it mean to be English?".  I then think of a great passage in the film Shooting Fish where there's an upper-middle and a staunch working class person talking about this in a patriotic speech.  It goes something like (UM = upper middle, and W= working, obviously!)

UM - Sunday cricket!

M - Saturday football

UM - warm beer

W - lager

UM - roast chicken

W - chicken vindaloo

UM - Margaret Thatcher

W- Margaret Thatcher!

There are many more things, but it sets me thinking.  The George Cross is predominantly associated at the moment, so it seems, with football, and the BNP.  Yet football is the sport we are perhaps performing the worst in at the moment, and it's not just the BNP who like the George Cross (as people have said above).

I very much agree with the comments that perhaps it is we, the majority, who can't find our own sense of national pride, rather than that someone has taken it away from us!

[dorothywilso]

I give up ,I merely meant that one should be able to display one's patriotism without worrying about offending minorities especially though in prison.

[dorothywilso]

that should read those in prison ,not though!

[sp1814]

Just want to point out something (don't know if anyone else has made this point because I haven't read the entire thread).

As a black man who lived near Bermondsey throughout the 70s, I always associated both the St. George's Flag and the Union Jack as being symbols of racism, simply because they'd been appropriated by the National Front and after that, the BNP.

As a level headed adult, I know that people should not feel that they can't show their patrotism through flying a flag, or wearing a pin. However, the problem is that there are so many people who associate the flag with racism...possibly in the same way that the US Confederate flag evokes mistrust because of it's associations.

Perhaps if the NF and BNP had been banned from bastardising the flag in the first place....? 

[january_bug]

That's a good point sp1814.  However, I wasn't even alive in the 1970s, and I have to admit I don't know much about those events of which you spoke.  I'm sure as a level headed adult you would not think of me as racist, if you saw me, a white girl, wearing my England rugby shirt and carry a George Cross through London, perhaps on my way to Tickenham. 

I agree that racist people should not be /have been allowed to bastardise the English flag.  However it's too late to correct the past, and banning use of the English flag on a wider scale would not blur yours, nor anyone else's memories of the 1970s race riots. 

Without the George Cross, how SHOULD the English celebrate our patriotism?  Red roses are a symbol of love, and of the Labour party, so that's out!  What else is there? 

I am properly, a British person, as my Nana was Scottish.  But I support England at sport, and would like to be able to do so with my flag for many years to come.  I don't think, therefore, that the Union Flag (thank you jno!  So glad there are people who understand that it's only a Jack when it's on a boat!) is an adequate replacement.  Plus I don't tihnk the Scots and Welsh like to be tarred with our brush, and in Northern Ireland the Union flag is, in itself, a symbol of division as well as unity really. 

[garyyokel]

I noticed Dr. Fox picked up on the flag issue yesterday in his conference speech - perhaps he's reading AB? Or maybe he's even here among us...

[Gef]

Well said domtuk. I am English but have lived and taught in Scotland for the last 30 years. If I was to wear such a pin I would expect a slagging from the kids (they know I am English) but nothing worse. If any of my pupils turned up wearing a pin shoeing their national flag (Scottish, Indian, Pakistani etc) I would not be offended.

jno's point about the swastika is just ludicrous. We are talking here about wearing a national symbol in your home country.

Anyway, who is this Ms Owers and why is he an expert?

[january_bug]

I'm sure HM Prisons Inspectorate are always looking to recruit people who can do the job better.  I detect a few volunteers here I hope.