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France Again
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But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.
(Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
(Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
"vetuste_ennemi
Okay...you wanted it."
Oh dear, how typical. I was hoping to get some open-mindedness. Unlike you, SP, I could have pointed all of these passages out without having to go to the internet as you surely did. In fact I could have picked out far worse from the Pentateuch, Joshua and Samuel 1&2. You see I've read the Bible. Unlike you. I've also read a lot of the Islamic holy texts. Unlike you. If you'd bothered to attend to my earlier arguments and attempt an honest critique of them, rather than reassert your own ill-founded prejudices in your usual superior manner you would have seen two points - one plainly stated and one implied which anticipate your response.
Let's take Mosaic Law codified in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. The sanction for slavery and punishment for adultery, homosexuality etc. were borrowed form the Torah by Mohammed and incorporated into the Sharia penal code. Now this is the plain point which you were in too much of a rush to listen to. There is only one state which might be called Jewish that I know of, - Israel. Are these Old Testament punishment sanctioned by Israeli law today? Of course not, they've long since been repudiated as inconsistent with human rights. And this despite the fact that the Torah and the OT as a whole are still considered holy books in Judaeism. Now how many Islamic countries have repudiated the same punishments? Well, some. certainly. But by no means all. You personally could be stoned in Saudi Arabia, or hanged in Iran, or maybe lashed in more "liberal" societies. That is because once the Koran is accepted as the literal word of God, and the actions of Mohammed are considered the supreme example of human conduct there remains no easy way of interpreting the savagery away. That is why slavery persisted in the Islamic world well into the 20th century.
The more subtle point. I mentioned when comparing Jesus with Mohammed the story of the adulteress. "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" was Christ himself repudiating "cruel and unusual" punishment.
I asked you when you issued your "challenge" to give me an example of Christ having beheaded an enemy. You didn't find one of those, did you? When Peter lopped off the centurion's ear in the garden of Gethsemane Jeus miraculously replaced it.
Okay...you wanted it."
Oh dear, how typical. I was hoping to get some open-mindedness. Unlike you, SP, I could have pointed all of these passages out without having to go to the internet as you surely did. In fact I could have picked out far worse from the Pentateuch, Joshua and Samuel 1&2. You see I've read the Bible. Unlike you. I've also read a lot of the Islamic holy texts. Unlike you. If you'd bothered to attend to my earlier arguments and attempt an honest critique of them, rather than reassert your own ill-founded prejudices in your usual superior manner you would have seen two points - one plainly stated and one implied which anticipate your response.
Let's take Mosaic Law codified in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. The sanction for slavery and punishment for adultery, homosexuality etc. were borrowed form the Torah by Mohammed and incorporated into the Sharia penal code. Now this is the plain point which you were in too much of a rush to listen to. There is only one state which might be called Jewish that I know of, - Israel. Are these Old Testament punishment sanctioned by Israeli law today? Of course not, they've long since been repudiated as inconsistent with human rights. And this despite the fact that the Torah and the OT as a whole are still considered holy books in Judaeism. Now how many Islamic countries have repudiated the same punishments? Well, some. certainly. But by no means all. You personally could be stoned in Saudi Arabia, or hanged in Iran, or maybe lashed in more "liberal" societies. That is because once the Koran is accepted as the literal word of God, and the actions of Mohammed are considered the supreme example of human conduct there remains no easy way of interpreting the savagery away. That is why slavery persisted in the Islamic world well into the 20th century.
The more subtle point. I mentioned when comparing Jesus with Mohammed the story of the adulteress. "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" was Christ himself repudiating "cruel and unusual" punishment.
I asked you when you issued your "challenge" to give me an example of Christ having beheaded an enemy. You didn't find one of those, did you? When Peter lopped off the centurion's ear in the garden of Gethsemane Jeus miraculously replaced it.
I asked you when you issued your "challenge" to give me an example of Christ having beheaded an enemy. You didn't find one of those, did you?
No...but it was a ridiculous question.
The Bible isn't an autobiography of Jesus.
It's a text for Christians to follow.
Therefore, the passages that I looked up on the Internet (you're right there) are relevant to Christian teaching.
No...but it was a ridiculous question.
The Bible isn't an autobiography of Jesus.
It's a text for Christians to follow.
Therefore, the passages that I looked up on the Internet (you're right there) are relevant to Christian teaching.
//The Bible isn't an autobiography of Jesus. //
that's true enough, it's unlikely jesus had any part in writing about himself in any part of what now constitutes the bible. but the new testament contains four canonical gospels, which are themselves biographies of jesus's life and works. so had jesus ever executed anybody, or commanded it, then one of the gospels - or possibly "Acts" - would surely have referenced it.
that's true enough, it's unlikely jesus had any part in writing about himself in any part of what now constitutes the bible. but the new testament contains four canonical gospels, which are themselves biographies of jesus's life and works. so had jesus ever executed anybody, or commanded it, then one of the gospels - or possibly "Acts" - would surely have referenced it.
You're missing the point, SP. (Out of knavery rather than folly, that's for sure).
There may be dotty Christians who decide that they have to chop somebody's head, but they couldn't justify their action by pointing to THEIR exemplar and saying "Look, that's what Jesus did to his enemies", or claiming that Jesus had asked them to kill non-Christians. No such example, no such precept exists. You have to go back to the OT to find examples where God ordains the slaughter of non-Israelites, and even then, appalling as these passages and the morality they teach are, the ordinance is not universal. Jehovah gave the Israelites the Promised Land, not the whole earth.
Let me try a different tack. How many Jews and Christians do you think there are who believe the Bible literally? Now how many Muslims do you think there are who take their scriptures literally?
There may be dotty Christians who decide that they have to chop somebody's head, but they couldn't justify their action by pointing to THEIR exemplar and saying "Look, that's what Jesus did to his enemies", or claiming that Jesus had asked them to kill non-Christians. No such example, no such precept exists. You have to go back to the OT to find examples where God ordains the slaughter of non-Israelites, and even then, appalling as these passages and the morality they teach are, the ordinance is not universal. Jehovah gave the Israelites the Promised Land, not the whole earth.
Let me try a different tack. How many Jews and Christians do you think there are who believe the Bible literally? Now how many Muslims do you think there are who take their scriptures literally?
You've also ignored the most significant point I was trying to make in an earlier post, SP: that Islam is a political project, not just a religious one.
Christ promised to return to judge the living and the dead; Mohammed was a judge, a law-maker, a general in his own lifetime. All this in addition to his role as spiritual leaded of the Muslim community. Christ told his followers to "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel": Mohammed's message to his followers was to go into all the world and subjugate it.
Christ promised to return to judge the living and the dead; Mohammed was a judge, a law-maker, a general in his own lifetime. All this in addition to his role as spiritual leaded of the Muslim community. Christ told his followers to "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel": Mohammed's message to his followers was to go into all the world and subjugate it.
