Are We To Be Wary Of Democracy?

[anotheoldgit]

Well historian Simon Schama seems to think we should.

/// “Democracy often brings fascists to power it did so to Germany in the 1930s. ///

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/730325/Simon-Schama-Donald-Trump-Hitler-Germany

[andy-hughes]

I think you are making a connection there which does not actually exist AOG.

You could equally say - be wary of kittens because lions are cats.

Just because a system of election has given rise to dictatorships does not make it inherently or automatically a bad system.

Few if any systems which enjoy the input of millions of people are ever going to be faultless - but a choice remains the best system there is, potential flaws accepted.

[Kromovaracun]

He isn't wrong.

I believe in democracy as much as the next ABer, but that's not a reason to ignore its shortcomings. The simple truth is that it is possible for the majority to be wrong about something.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't uphold democratic institutions, because ultimately they are worth the price: they offer a kind of accountability that simply doesn't exist in other systems. But yes, we should be as wary as possible of the ways that democracy can be exploited. If we aren't, then we aren't doing our duty as citizens.

[naomi24]

When democracy elects the wrong kind of leaders, only by examining the reasons and addressing those reasons can we remedy it. Ignoring problems serves only to exacerbate them.

[Zacs-Master]

Has Simon not heard of Kim Jong-un? Seems the other system is even more likely to bring them to the fore. In fact it's a prerequisite.

[agchristie]

I think we should be more concerned with Schama waving his hands around like a windmill when he expresses himself. Could do someone an injury.

[andy-hughes]

I would take issue with the use of the word 'wary' - it infers that democracy is a system we cannot trust.

We can trust it, but only a fool would blindly let it be used without being aware that it is fallible.

[Peter Pedant]

yeah I was wondering last night if I should go for an early invocation of Godwins Law ( = useful conversation on a subject is over once someone mentions the Nazis)

but I thought it was hackneyed / cliched

[naomi24]

//but I thought it was hackneyed / cliched //

It's also nonsense.

[anotheoldgit]

naomi24

/// When democracy elects the wrong kind of leaders, ///

Who decides who are the wrong kind of leaders, if the majority of the people have chosen their leaders in a democratic vote?

Isn't that what democracy is all about?

[Peter Pedant]

// You could equally say - be wary of kittens because lions are cats. //

or

I wont drink tea as my aunt scalded herself once .....
or
Most people dont fly when they throw themselves off buildings but that doesnt mean it applies to me ....

we could even classify this s " normal for AB"

[naomi24]

aog, it is what democracy is all about – but Hitler and the Nazis is why Simon Schama thinks democracy can go wrong, and in that instance I’m sure you’ll agree with him. No?

[andy-hughes]

Peter Pedant - actually, no you couldn't say those things in this instance, they don't fit.

My kitten / lion analogy works because you should not be wary of something for fear of what it might turn into - because it does not automatically follow that it always will, only that it can do.

[anotheoldgit]

naomi24

I don't think that democracy was something that the German people enjoyed.

// The majority of Germans didn't vote for
Hitler. ///

/// The high water mark of the Nazi Party was 43.9% in 1934 in a less than free election, after which there were no more contested elections in Germany. ///

[ToraToraTora]

I don't think so, it's worked rather well recently, a hatrick of great results AOG!

[Peter Pedant]

// Peter Pedant - actually, no you couldn't say those things in this instance, they don't fit. //

yes I can say those things - as they are all non sequiturs ( that is what they have in common )

As dear Nigh says - it is all nonsense
and as I would say as I see a non-sequitur that howls on AB just about every day 'normal for AB'

PS a non sequitur is .... not a cat

[naomi24]

aog,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party

[mikey4444]

If Schama is comparing Trump with Hitler then he is a fool.

I abhor everything that Trump is and what he stands for, but he is hardly a Dictator.

Hitler may have been voted in originally, but it wasn't long before he rode rough-shod over all democratic processes.

There was nothing very democratic about invading Poland, Holland, Denmark, and Norway, to mention just a few places

[naomi24]

Mikey, you're missing the point. Democracy can ultimately result in the unforeseen - as in the case of Nazi Germany.

[Old_Geezer]

Humans progress by making mistakes and vowing never to let that happen again. There was a time the elites did not want the masses educated for fear of what they would get up to, but now the masses are educated there has been overall benefit. So if democracy is ever tried anywhere in the world there is the possibility of the people making bad decisions. Sh.. happens. And it isn't the only way it happens; other systems have proven it occurs anyway. But the experience of making the poor decision progresses the people and increases the common wisdom.

[agchristie]

Krom > The simple truth is that it is possible for the majority to be wrong about something.

Indeed. Part of the problem I've noticed is that, for example, the Scottish and European referendums, huge swathes of voters did not really understand the issues, implications that they were faced with.

I'm not suggesting that in both these instances that the final outcome was wrong but it is symptomatic of the failure of politicians to genuinely present their reasons to vote for them combined with voter confusion.

Much has been made of changing electoral boundaries and the unfairness of a system that saw big support for UKIP which was not reflected in returned seats.

Hitler is referred to, an influential rousing orator. There aren't too many great speakers around and how many politicians can we really trust and believe?

Is it any wonder that so many voters are left shaking their heads both before and after casting their votes?