ChatterBank1 min ago
Freedom Of Speech
The final statement of Geert Wilders at his trial;
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"Lunol - no merit at all and you say you have read it THREE times!!
> The Git Wilders has a deeply rooted fear and hatred of Moroccans...
....sounds like your rant gives you a deeply rooted fear and hatred of Wilders."
Yes, no merit at all. My "Merit giving" stops at "Oh boo hoo Git Wilders, play the violin why doncha"
Like I said I've read similar from thousands of Parole Applications and you read the same from criminals who write letters pre sentencing to give to the judges in hope of a lenient sentence.
This man is dangerous as a politician, he is dishonest, a liar and a fraud about his true feelings and his political agenda.
> The Git Wilders has a deeply rooted fear and hatred of Moroccans...
....sounds like your rant gives you a deeply rooted fear and hatred of Wilders."
Yes, no merit at all. My "Merit giving" stops at "Oh boo hoo Git Wilders, play the violin why doncha"
Like I said I've read similar from thousands of Parole Applications and you read the same from criminals who write letters pre sentencing to give to the judges in hope of a lenient sentence.
This man is dangerous as a politician, he is dishonest, a liar and a fraud about his true feelings and his political agenda.
"....sounds like your rant gives you a deeply rooted fear and hatred of Wilders."
I think that all humanitarians of a sound mind and thinking have a deeply rooted fear and hatred of Wilders, and the "Wilders" of this world in various governments and political standing.
Personally I feel sorry for them at their warped way of thinking.
I think that all humanitarians of a sound mind and thinking have a deeply rooted fear and hatred of Wilders, and the "Wilders" of this world in various governments and political standing.
Personally I feel sorry for them at their warped way of thinking.
//but what's the clue. I'm awesome at crosswords.//
I've finished it now, SP. I'm not brilliant at them, but it's taken me 57 minutes today which is twenty more than my average. I'm blaming you.
round (tow)er was 12A.
Do girls still play rounders at school these days?
Gone totally off piste. Apologies to OP.
I've finished it now, SP. I'm not brilliant at them, but it's taken me 57 minutes today which is twenty more than my average. I'm blaming you.
round (tow)er was 12A.
Do girls still play rounders at school these days?
Gone totally off piste. Apologies to OP.
Lunol > Yes, no merit at all. My "Merit giving" stops at "Oh boo hoo Git Wilders, play the violin why doncha"
More like crashing cymbals to bring the court to reality. His is not a plea for a lesser sentence, more a wake up call.
Far worse comments have been made by the Dutch Labour Party politicians. Why have they not been prosecuted Lunol?
More like crashing cymbals to bring the court to reality. His is not a plea for a lesser sentence, more a wake up call.
Far worse comments have been made by the Dutch Labour Party politicians. Why have they not been prosecuted Lunol?
"Far worse comments have been made by the Dutch Labour Party politicians. Why have they not been prosecuted Lunol?"
They should all be tried together but then that is my own personal opinion and unfortuantely I am not in a high position in the Dutch political /judical system to make this happen although if you were to start an online petition then I'd happily sign it.
They should all be tried together but then that is my own personal opinion and unfortuantely I am not in a high position in the Dutch political /judical system to make this happen although if you were to start an online petition then I'd happily sign it.
"This man is dangerous as a politician, he is dishonest, a liar and a fraud about his true feelings and his political agenda."
I think its his honesty that has seen him land up where he is.
Just out of interest, why are there so many Moroccans in the Netherlands? What's the attraction? Why didn't they stay in Morocco? I don't know how many there are here in the UK but I have to say I wouldn't be too keen to see large numbers of them head for these shores. Am I allowed to say that? Or does it make me as racist as Mr Wilders?
I think its his honesty that has seen him land up where he is.
Just out of interest, why are there so many Moroccans in the Netherlands? What's the attraction? Why didn't they stay in Morocco? I don't know how many there are here in the UK but I have to say I wouldn't be too keen to see large numbers of them head for these shores. Am I allowed to say that? Or does it make me as racist as Mr Wilders?
"Just out of interest, why are there so many Moroccans in the Netherlands? What's the attraction? Why didn't they stay in Morocco?
"For a better life"
I don't know how many there are here in the UK but I have to say I wouldn't be too keen to see large numbers of them head for these shores.
There are already a large number of Moroccans here in "Little Morroco" Ladbroke Grove.
Am I allowed to say that? Or does it make me as racist as Mr Wilders?
What is your fear based on?
"For a better life"
I don't know how many there are here in the UK but I have to say I wouldn't be too keen to see large numbers of them head for these shores.
There are already a large number of Moroccans here in "Little Morroco" Ladbroke Grove.
Am I allowed to say that? Or does it make me as racist as Mr Wilders?
What is your fear based on?
Lunol; You want figures,
'In the Netherlands, half the Moroccan youth get in trouble with the police by the time they're 22. A third of this group are repeat offenders with more than 5 incidents on their record, according to a new study published in the recent issue of the Tijdschrift voor Criminologie (Journal of Criminology).
To the surprise of the authors, it turns out Moroccan girls commit three times as many crimes as Dutch girls.'
That is an appalling record of crime from one group, are you suggesting that anyone pointing out those figures is being racist.
Having claimed to have read his statement three times, (that must have taken you quite a while) you say, "All I heard was cries and pleas for a lower sentence."
Then it would seem you are incapable of analysis.
'In the Netherlands, half the Moroccan youth get in trouble with the police by the time they're 22. A third of this group are repeat offenders with more than 5 incidents on their record, according to a new study published in the recent issue of the Tijdschrift voor Criminologie (Journal of Criminology).
To the surprise of the authors, it turns out Moroccan girls commit three times as many crimes as Dutch girls.'
That is an appalling record of crime from one group, are you suggesting that anyone pointing out those figures is being racist.
Having claimed to have read his statement three times, (that must have taken you quite a while) you say, "All I heard was cries and pleas for a lower sentence."
Then it would seem you are incapable of analysis.
"What is your fear based on?"
There's no fear, just a dislike. Likes and dislikes cannot always be rationalised in the same way that fears may be. People should be entitled to dislike others (even if it's just because they are Asian or African or Moroccan).
I'm sure it's fine in Ladbroke Grove because I imagine a large number of the people living there were not born in the UK anyway and a few Moroccans added to the mix would not make a huge amount of difference. But there are parts of the UK where an influx of Moroccans would disturb the natives. I know you probably believe that "that's their problem" and indeed it is. But that's why they might be inclined to agree with Mr Wilders' remarks. Because people want a "better life" is not reason enough to allow them to settle in Europe, especially in parts of the continent where there simply are not the facilities and services for them and their influx will be to the detriment of those already there. It might be better if they understood that instead of being encouraged to believe that the contrary was true. That's what many people in Europe (including me) believe. I hold that belief for many reasons, none of which are based simply on the fact that they are of different races. So, as I asked earlier, does that make me a racist? I'd like to know because if it does there's little point in any further debate because our views are fundamentally different.
There's no fear, just a dislike. Likes and dislikes cannot always be rationalised in the same way that fears may be. People should be entitled to dislike others (even if it's just because they are Asian or African or Moroccan).
I'm sure it's fine in Ladbroke Grove because I imagine a large number of the people living there were not born in the UK anyway and a few Moroccans added to the mix would not make a huge amount of difference. But there are parts of the UK where an influx of Moroccans would disturb the natives. I know you probably believe that "that's their problem" and indeed it is. But that's why they might be inclined to agree with Mr Wilders' remarks. Because people want a "better life" is not reason enough to allow them to settle in Europe, especially in parts of the continent where there simply are not the facilities and services for them and their influx will be to the detriment of those already there. It might be better if they understood that instead of being encouraged to believe that the contrary was true. That's what many people in Europe (including me) believe. I hold that belief for many reasons, none of which are based simply on the fact that they are of different races. So, as I asked earlier, does that make me a racist? I'd like to know because if it does there's little point in any further debate because our views are fundamentally different.
To go back to the first reply on this thread, where the fatuous reply that free speech demands responsibilities from the speaker, but none of course from the listener. That reply was made incidentally with no attempt to scrutinise the op link provided. This is indeed nothing more than a knee jerk, glib, shot in the dark in an attempt to itself quell freedom of thought and speech.. To suggest that an individual should have the obligation not to unnecessarily offend, is to make every individual responsible for the thoughts of every other, theoretical individual who might be offended by one's words, or even, as we see now all too often, just claim to be offended for malicious purposes.Perhaps the problem for the long-term survival of Europe is that in modern politics, too many individuals are seeking to base legislation on protecting people from being offended, instead of basing legislation on what is best for the national and cultural security of a country. Too many countries, based on originally well-intended laws that repress free speech, have already fallen into the trap of the truth is no defence. That of course leads to the major politically incorrect elephant in the room:
Is it possible that there are people who are exploiting the West's open but expensive legal process precisely to shut down freedom of speech and political views they find inconvenient for themselves?
Is it possible that there are people who are exploiting the West's open but expensive legal process precisely to shut down freedom of speech and political views they find inconvenient for themselves?
sp's analogy with black people in UK is interesting.
The difference between them and Mr Wilder's Moroccans is context surely.
The majority of black people in the UK have roots here back to the 1950s or 60s at least. Where there are social issues such as their over-representation in knife crime, then those are in part 'our' social issues and it would be inappropriate to call for repatriation of people whose grandparents were born here.
Moroccans in the Netherlands are (as i understand it) predominantly first generation so if they are indeed over-represented in crime statistics then the call to stem their immigration would seem far more reasonable.
The difference between them and Mr Wilder's Moroccans is context surely.
The majority of black people in the UK have roots here back to the 1950s or 60s at least. Where there are social issues such as their over-representation in knife crime, then those are in part 'our' social issues and it would be inappropriate to call for repatriation of people whose grandparents were born here.
Moroccans in the Netherlands are (as i understand it) predominantly first generation so if they are indeed over-represented in crime statistics then the call to stem their immigration would seem far more reasonable.
New Judge > But there are parts of the UK where an influx of Moroccans would disturb the natives.
In the 2001 Census there were just over 12,000 Moroccans registered in the UK. The figure now is believed to be closer to 70,000. Outside London the highest concentration is in Trowbridge, the county town of Swindon.
In the Netherlands there are around 400,000 Moroccans making up 2% of the population.
Figures provided by Khandro in his second link were rather disturbing and surely Wilders is entitled to express his concerns reflecting this without accusations of hate speech.
In the 2001 Census there were just over 12,000 Moroccans registered in the UK. The figure now is believed to be closer to 70,000. Outside London the highest concentration is in Trowbridge, the county town of Swindon.
In the Netherlands there are around 400,000 Moroccans making up 2% of the population.
Figures provided by Khandro in his second link were rather disturbing and surely Wilders is entitled to express his concerns reflecting this without accusations of hate speech.
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