Carol Dambuster

[weecalf]

Carol ex countdown wants no demands a knighthood for last dambuster will this help or hinder his chances ,given that he did not do it for the glory but for the nations cause .

[andy-hughes]

AOG - //I know that you are not old enough to have lived through WW2, but surely you must have read of extreme acts of courage that took place during those horrific six years. //

My point precisely - we must distinguish between those exceptional and extreme acts of courage, and people who simply carried out their roles, dangerous and courageous though they were, and I take nothing away from them for that.

But that does not make them 'heroes' in the accepted sense of the word.

[jno]

ymb, I don't see any reason for anyone to get them in this case. What's wrong with military decorations for military actions?

[anotheoldgit]

andy-hughes

/// But that does not make them 'heroes' in the accepted sense of the word. ///

It does not only in my book, but also in the true sense of the word.

*** a person who is admired or idealized for courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities "a war hero" ***

What is your definition a sports person of outstanding achievements?

[andy-hughes]

AOG - I take your point - but I can only reiterate my earlier observation, if everyone is a 'hero', then no-one is a hero. We simply need to find another adjective to fit this situation.

I am not sure why you are asking me about the achievements of sports people, I have less than no interest in sport.

But I do have an opinion about the civilian honours heaped on them, which chimes entirely with my view above - if you make every Olympian a knight or a dame, then it devalues the concept of the honour, and if you give out an OBE for 'services to fashion', then the 'honour' aspect vanishes altogether.

[anotheoldgit]

andy-hughes

/// if everyone is a 'hero', then no-one is a hero. ///

No one except yourself has claimed that everyone is a hero, but there are truly some real heroes that deserve to become knights of the realm, just as in olden days.

[Peter Pedant]

// Well he's more deserving of one than most but not sure why Vorderperson has taken up the case though.//

erm because like you ( hahahaha) she thinks he is more deserving than most?

you will excuse me if I comment " what wiv dat den ?"

The one they decorated wizz the Legion d'honneur - the last one to live having fought in the Great War commented ( en francais)
you are only doing this because I am long lived

Dam busting was a big thing during the war but we can later ask - what long term effect did it have ? ( unlike Nagaskai which was war ending )
and the answer was - very little - the Germans were very efficient in transferring and maintaining production from bombed factories

[andy-hughes]

AOG - //No one except yourself has claimed that everyone is a hero, but there are truly some real heroes that deserve to become knights of the realm, just as in olden days. //

I did not say that everyone is a hero, what I said was, if everyone is a hero, then no-one is a hero, which is not the same thing at all.

I am not disputing that some people performed extreme acts of bravery - or that they deserve to be honoured for them.

My entire point is that if you offer a civilian honour which is given to people like bankers and sportsmen, then you devalue the concept of the honour, and by default, you take away from the reason why the award is being given in the first place.

[andy-hughes]

TTT - //usual h0srsesh1t from two cells, read Eisenhower's book to see what help the dambuster raids were. //

Unpleasant language aside, the facts of the Dambusters' activities are not relevant to this discussion - the courage they showed and the effect on the war's progress are not in dispute, but neither are they the subject of this debate.

[B00]

And before you accuse Andy 3T- that was me :-)

[ToraToraTora]

AH: it is when someone like two cells makes silly anti British statements: "....and the answer was - very little"

[andy-hughes]

TTT - //AH: it is when someone like two cells makes silly anti British statements: "....and the answer was - very little" //

I can make no sense of that at all - would you like to explain a little more clearly please? Thanks.

[Mamyalynne]

For those who wonder why Carol has chosen to champion this gentleman, here are her own words.

//I'm Carol Vorderman MBE, TV presenter and Honorary Ambassador for the RAF Air Cadets.
Last year I met 95-year-old George "Johnny" Johnson - Britain's last surviving hero from the Dambusters raid on Nazi Germany.
I was overwhelmed and humbled by his achievements and what he has done for this country.
That's why many of us were extremely disappointed that, in spite of being nominated, he was overlooked in this year's New Year Honours list. I can't think of anyone who deserves a knighthood more than Johnny.
There were many fine people who received awards, but I believe they would all agree that Johnny deserves one too.
He is an incredible man who volunteered for one of the most dangerous missions during World War II. And since then he has been a teacher, a counsellor, endlessly supported young people and raised huge amounts for charity.//


It's clear he has made a great impact on both her and everyone whose life ha has touched, his deeds do not make him any more a hero than someone else.

Simply someone who has done enough to warrant being nominated for an honour.

[baza]

A few years ago a railway station announcer was given either an OBE or MBE can't remember which, for services to the travelling public . I think the last Dambuster deserves a damned sight more than that.

[hereIam]

I agree with Carol, he deserves a Knighthood and is a damn sight more deserving that A Murray !

[Mamyalynne]

Them perhaps you have misunderstood my meaning behind them, for that I can only apologise for my lack of clarity.

[Mamyalynne]

Of course -

If we assembled a row of men and women including George "Johnny" Johnson who all performed great deeds and even then have gone further to do even more in the wider world, could we easily distinguish who was the more deserving in the line up of those heroic people?


For myself I feel he is deserving of an honour as of course are many others who have been passed over through the years.

[baza]

It's a shame that the system misses some who deserve something and rewards many who do not.