Law8 mins ago
Bexit; Brilliant Speech From 'remainer' Oliver Letwin
Eloquence and common sense, would you not say?
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Zacs....an interesting analogy to that point is the issue of capital punishment.
It would seem to me that most ordinary people would gladly bring back the rope, and yet the majority of MP's, who vote on this issue every now and then, consistently vote against it.
That is an example of MP's being given a Free Vote, and voting on their own consciousnesses , and that doesn't entail running back to their constituencies to ask for guidance.
MPs are not Robots after all.
It would seem to me that most ordinary people would gladly bring back the rope, and yet the majority of MP's, who vote on this issue every now and then, consistently vote against it.
That is an example of MP's being given a Free Vote, and voting on their own consciousnesses , and that doesn't entail running back to their constituencies to ask for guidance.
MPs are not Robots after all.
Zacs, If there were to be a referendums on bringing back hanging or reducing taxation by 50%, a majority of MPs would demur from following the will of their constituents the majority of whom would undoubtedly vote for such measures.
MPs are elected to represent what they consider to be the best interests of their constituents.
MPs are elected to represent what they consider to be the best interests of their constituents.
Interesting that Mikey and Naomi between them have anticipated the analogy I'm about to use.
If Parliament had deferred a decision about capital punishment to the electorate through a referendum, and the majority had voted for its reinstatement, then how should individual MPs vote on a following bill to make the necessary changes in law?
I think the answer is simple: if the MP had voted FOR the referendum the he should in good conscience vote for the popular decision; if he had voted AGAINST holding a referendum (mistrusting - perhaps rightly - the public's judgment on an important moral issue like this), then he should, also in good conscience, vote against it.
If Parliament had deferred a decision about capital punishment to the electorate through a referendum, and the majority had voted for its reinstatement, then how should individual MPs vote on a following bill to make the necessary changes in law?
I think the answer is simple: if the MP had voted FOR the referendum the he should in good conscience vote for the popular decision; if he had voted AGAINST holding a referendum (mistrusting - perhaps rightly - the public's judgment on an important moral issue like this), then he should, also in good conscience, vote against it.
> Are you not capable of addressing what he says then?
Of course I'm capable but, given he has no credibility, he's not worth the effort.
* In 1985 he wrote a notorious memo on the Broadwater Farm riots, which he apologised for in 2015 when it was made public under the 30 year rule.
* During the 2001 election, and for some time afterwards, he famously 'went into hiding' having expressed an aspiration to curtail future public spending by £20 billion per annum relative to the plans of the Labour government, which failed to gather support from even his own colleagues.
* In 2002, two strangers knocked on his door at 5AM asking if they could use his lavatory. He agreed to let them do so and they then stole his credit cards and other belongings. He chased them down the street in his dressing gown and pyjamas.
* In 2003, The Independent reported Letwin saying that he would "go out on the streets and beg" rather than send his children to the state schools in Lambeth where he and his family lived.
* In 2009, the Daily Telegraph reported that he agreed to repay a bill for £2,145 for replacing a leaking pipe under the tennis court at his constituency home in Dorset, which he had claimed on his parliamentary expenses.
* In 2011, he stated to KPMG that you cannot have "innovation and excellence" without "real discipline and some fear on the part of the providers" in the public sector. This was widely reported, with The Guardian headline stating Letwin says 'public sector workers need "discipline and fear"'.
* Later in 2011, enquiries made by the Information Commissioner's Office found that Letwin disposed of constituents' personal and confidential letters to him in a public bin in St James Park and therefore breached data protection rules.
All of the above shows the man has extremely poor judgement. In 2016, he even backed Remain. ;) Maybe he's on the turn now, Khandro, but he's hardly a poster boy for a "He says it so it must be true" post ... quite the opposite.
Of course I'm capable but, given he has no credibility, he's not worth the effort.
* In 1985 he wrote a notorious memo on the Broadwater Farm riots, which he apologised for in 2015 when it was made public under the 30 year rule.
* During the 2001 election, and for some time afterwards, he famously 'went into hiding' having expressed an aspiration to curtail future public spending by £20 billion per annum relative to the plans of the Labour government, which failed to gather support from even his own colleagues.
* In 2002, two strangers knocked on his door at 5AM asking if they could use his lavatory. He agreed to let them do so and they then stole his credit cards and other belongings. He chased them down the street in his dressing gown and pyjamas.
* In 2003, The Independent reported Letwin saying that he would "go out on the streets and beg" rather than send his children to the state schools in Lambeth where he and his family lived.
* In 2009, the Daily Telegraph reported that he agreed to repay a bill for £2,145 for replacing a leaking pipe under the tennis court at his constituency home in Dorset, which he had claimed on his parliamentary expenses.
* In 2011, he stated to KPMG that you cannot have "innovation and excellence" without "real discipline and some fear on the part of the providers" in the public sector. This was widely reported, with The Guardian headline stating Letwin says 'public sector workers need "discipline and fear"'.
* Later in 2011, enquiries made by the Information Commissioner's Office found that Letwin disposed of constituents' personal and confidential letters to him in a public bin in St James Park and therefore breached data protection rules.
All of the above shows the man has extremely poor judgement. In 2016, he even backed Remain. ;) Maybe he's on the turn now, Khandro, but he's hardly a poster boy for a "He says it so it must be true" post ... quite the opposite.
Ellipsis, some of those details are quite praiseworthy; chasing crooks in his pyjamas. Do you know what was in the Broadwater farm memo?
I can add that in a debate at his University debating society, the motion was; 'There are no trees in Canada' which he upheld, and such is his skill, he actually won!
I can add that in a debate at his University debating society, the motion was; 'There are no trees in Canada' which he upheld, and such is his skill, he actually won!
> some of those details are quite praiseworthy; chasing crooks in his pyjamas
I did not question his bravery, only his judgement. Letting crooks into your house, getting robbed, then chasing them in your pyjamas when outnumbered ... good judgement?
> Do you know what was in the Broadwater farm memo?
Yes, it's a matter of public record since 2015. His apology read "Following reports tonight, I want to make clear that some parts of a private memo I wrote nearly 30 years ago were both badly worded and wrong. I apologise unreservedly for any offence these comments have caused and wish to make clear that none was intended." Good judgement?
> I can add that in a debate at his University debating society, the motion was; 'There are no trees in Canada' which he upheld, and such is his skill, he actually won!
This does nothing to demonstrate his good judgement. It does however show that he can charm the pants off an electorate enough to get them to vote for some "alternative facts" ...
I did not question his bravery, only his judgement. Letting crooks into your house, getting robbed, then chasing them in your pyjamas when outnumbered ... good judgement?
> Do you know what was in the Broadwater farm memo?
Yes, it's a matter of public record since 2015. His apology read "Following reports tonight, I want to make clear that some parts of a private memo I wrote nearly 30 years ago were both badly worded and wrong. I apologise unreservedly for any offence these comments have caused and wish to make clear that none was intended." Good judgement?
> I can add that in a debate at his University debating society, the motion was; 'There are no trees in Canada' which he upheld, and such is his skill, he actually won!
This does nothing to demonstrate his good judgement. It does however show that he can charm the pants off an electorate enough to get them to vote for some "alternative facts" ...
Naomi, I don't follow your logic. You complained that MPs should represent the wishes of their constituents but when I pointed out that some of them were, for the sake of Brexit which I believe you support, doing the opposite, you commented: 'In normal circumstances MPs should represent the wishes of their constituents, but this isn’t normal circumstances and in this instance democracy must prevail. '
You can't have it both ways.
You can't have it both ways.
Khandro, details of the memo are here:
https:/
Please continue to support your poster boy Oliver Letwin. Next you'll be defending him using parliamentary expenses to replace a leaking pipe under his tennis court and, heaven forfend, supporting Remain in the 2016 referendum. His judgement is clearly beyond question.
Of all the authorities you might have appealed to support your argument, Sir Oliver Letwin must be among the most fallacious.
https:/
Please continue to support your poster boy Oliver Letwin. Next you'll be defending him using parliamentary expenses to replace a leaking pipe under his tennis court and, heaven forfend, supporting Remain in the 2016 referendum. His judgement is clearly beyond question.
Of all the authorities you might have appealed to support your argument, Sir Oliver Letwin must be among the most fallacious.
I don't think Letwin was a real 'Remainer'. There are plenty of links on a Google search highlighting Letwin being a Eurosceptic.
http://
I assume him voting Remain was to toady to his boss at the time, PM Cameron. In that context, Letwin now being an hard brexiteer is consistant with him being a political opportunist and brown-nosing whoever will next give him job.
http://
I assume him voting Remain was to toady to his boss at the time, PM Cameron. In that context, Letwin now being an hard brexiteer is consistant with him being a political opportunist and brown-nosing whoever will next give him job.
Re. the Broadwater memo;'Letwin and Booth urged "Thatcher to ignore reports that rioting in mainly black urban areas was the result of social deprivation and racism." In 1985 Letwin was then considered to be a "young star" of the Conservative Party. The memo scorned suggestions by senior cabinet ministers to set up a £10m communities programme to tackle inner-city problems by helping black entrepreneurs start businesses as suggested by then-Home Secretary David Young, refurbishing public housing council blocks as suggested by then-Environment Secretary Kenneth Baker and "establishing training programs for low-income youth."
Letwin claimed it would not ameliorate the situation but would do little more than "subsidise Rastafarian arts and crafts workshops" stating that black "entrepreneurs will set up in the disco and drug trade." '
It further went on to say that many people had lived in poverty and deprevation without resorting to crime and rioting.
Letwin claimed it would not ameliorate the situation but would do little more than "subsidise Rastafarian arts and crafts workshops" stating that black "entrepreneurs will set up in the disco and drug trade." '
It further went on to say that many people had lived in poverty and deprevation without resorting to crime and rioting.
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