Are Black, Asian And Minority Ethnic People Treated Differently By The British Justice System?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4863732/Criminals-ditch-court-agreeing-therapy-instead.html

/// Studies show that suspicion of police, prosecutors and solicitors makes ethnic-minority defendants a third more likely to plead not guilty than white suspects, leading to harsher sentences if they are convicted. ///

[Deskdiary]

Crikey - is d i c khead that bad a description for him....

[anotheoldgit]

sp1814

Pardon me for entering a news report that has been important enough not only to be widely reported on, but has been the subject on a radio phone-in.

/// I don't think this is indicative of the justice system, but more a reflection of how people of different ethnic c groups are perceived. ///

I can't quite see what you are getting at here, if it is not indicative of the justice system, then who is to be blamed for this one sided approach towards those ethnic groups?

Is it public pressure that is responsible for a high proportion of them languishing in our prison system?

[anotheoldgit]

sp1814

Seen that type of video before, they are so easily staged, there is also one were a woman is attacking a man, and people just stand around laughing, whereas the other way round and they gang up on the man.

[Ellipsis]

sp> BAME first time offenders are far more likely to get custodial sentences than their white counterparts (for similar offences).

Isn't that because they are far more likely to plead innocent? That's certainly what I heard on R4 Today this morning, from David Lammy ...

[Peter Pedant]

ask one of your black neighbours AOG

//The fact that someone pleads guilty doesn't necessarily mean that they committed the crime they were accused of.//

is a depressing fact that I first came across in 1980. as a lighbulb memory - a respectable black worker [built like a rugby player or brick......depending on your powers of description] came to me and said - ( you know the usual - blah blah and the police are lying. ) and I said 'is there anything to refute this' and he said "only my version" - and I said "in my view you are wasting your money to defend this."

and it is 37 years ago - I will never forget - 'plead guilty- you're screwed' is not REALLY how a justice ( the best in the world!) is meant to work

but hey things change - we have video phones and CCTV !

[Deskdiary]

I heard David Lammy on LBC this evening, and cutting through everything he said, when you boil it down he's complaining that black people receive more and greater custodial sentences than white people and that (paraphrasing) the judicial system needs looking at.

Now, as far as I am aware, the only people that can impose custodial sentences, other than magistrates up to a certain point are, are judges. The inference I drew from that is that he considers judges to be racist. And I don't think they are.

But then Lammy sees racism everywhere - so I'm far from surprised.

[sp1814]

AOG

You think I was being sarcastic earlier?

I wasn't.

[Peter Pedant]

// The inference I drew from that is that he considers judges to be racist. And I don't think they are. //

you havent met many judges then ?

[sp1814]

AOG

You wrote:

//Seen that type of video before, they are so easily staged//

Yes - that's the whole point. They are staged in order to gauge public reaction.

All of these videos are staged, but the reactions are real.

[Deskdiary]

"you haven't met many judges then"

I'm thankful not to have met any judges!

But I simply refuse to believe that judges are racist. I believe the UK justice system is blind to colour.

[THECORBYLOON]

Back in 2012 the Ministry of Justice said there was a problem and their study took into account folk who had pled not guilty and those who pled guilty.

https://goo.gl/94NpDp

'The Ministry of Justice said yesterday that ministers were aware “without a shadow of a doubt” that there were problems with the system, and said work had begun to address it as an area of “increasing concern”.'

[New Judge]

“…you havent met many judges then ?”

I have – quite a few. And I can say without any doubt that none of my acquaintance exhibit any racist qualities whatsoever, especially as far as their work goes.

I haven’t read Mr Lammy’s report in full (but I will do my best). A bit feature of the “executive summary” is that many offenders refuse to plead guilty because of their distrust of police and the judicial system. That being the case, they will inevitably end up with more severe sentences (by up to 50% harsher compared to those pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity). A further feature of that tactic is that the court (judge or magistrates) get first hand versions of the deed committed from witnesses (especially from victims) rather than the somewhat potted versions provided by prosecutors when a guilty plea is entered. This may also result in a more severe sentence.

I have read some of Mr Lammy’s stuff in the past and he is certainly is selective in his material but I'll reserve my judgement on his latest offering until I've read it.

[EDDIE51]

^ So it boils down to, a guilty black person is more likely to plead not guilty than a guilty white person? If so that explains the difference.

[THECORBYLOON]

The study from 2012 took into account those who pled not guilty and the way I read it, the report still found a bias.

[Old_Geezer]

The reactions are real, and unfortunate, but are they unreasonable ? The videos will be staged in communities where the reputation of different groups will differ. We have no evidence whether the reputations are deserved or not; and that's crucial to interpreting the result. If you have reason to think one person is more likely to have a legitimate reason to remove a bike chain whilst another is more likely to be up to something then it's likely you will react differently. Change the group reputation and the reactions will change to suit. Of course all bypassers should be making the same challenge, but many are wary about getting involved at all.

[Peter Pedant]

// But I simply refuse to believe that judges are racist. I believe the UK justice system is blind to colour. //

well aint that just pan-doody !

I simply refuse to believe ....... simply refuse to believe ..... that anyone could have blind confidence in a judicial system with the evidence so much to the contrary

[Peter Pedant]

(prejudice) // whatsoever, especially as far as their work goes. //

yeah good one: when I picked up a cheque for charity -
the president of the club ( gurl) congratulated me for being white as she had been bussed by an overjoyed winner - who was
blaaaack ! the previous week - and was still having a spazzie about it.
OK it was the spouse of a judge and she did add - you dont understand what I am saying do you?
I grabbed the cheque and ran ! ( 1985)

I had said to her - oh your husband (the judge) is famous but then I couldnt remember any of his judgements ( oops ) so it couldnt have been Lady Denning
and then on research back at home ( cheque in hand) found he was one the many many judges who had intoned 'the longer this case goes on - the more convinced I am of their (irish bombers) guilt'
[ J cant be identified as there were about 100 who queued up to say that about irish non-bombers] - so THAT was why he was famous rather than had given good law

[THECORBYLOON]

Your Answer...From the article I quoted previously, "Different types of crime also show sentencing differences. A white person pleading guilty to burglary was sentenced to, on average, 25 months in prison compared with a black person who typically received a 28-month sentence. Of those pleading not guilty but convicted by the courts, the sentences were 40 months and 47 months respectively."