Should smoking be banned in public places?

[Dakota]

I have been reading this article on BBC News:

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=102&&&edition=1&ttl=20051025152206

I would like to hear the views of *you* - the general public rather than what the Cabinet think.....

[trionam]

Being from ireland and being a non smoker im so glad they brought the ban in here, its great to be able to go for a drink and not have people smoking around you most of the pubs here have excellent outdoor facilities for smokers heating shelter etc, the only thing that annoys me if I'm out with a few mates who smoke they all want to go outside together and im left on my own.my husband has definatley cut down since it started he has a company van and he cant smoke in that either so its really benefical that way too.

[Dakota]

Trionam, have you noticed a difference in the amount of people who go to the pub? Has it fallen drastically or pretty much remained the same?

Knowing that come March 2006 smoking will be banned in public places in Scotland, no pubs and clubs are making provisions to accommodate the smokers having to go outside - was provisions made in Ireland ahead of the legislation coming into force or after the event?

[january_bug]

I absolutely categorically do NOT smell of smoke. I smoke 3 cigarettes a day, of the lightest brand on the market, outside, and I then spray a CFC free, very pleasant deoderant (that everyone says they like), wash my hands, freshen my breath, and, when at home, febreze my clothes. I'm sure there are others who also smoke, but take pride in their personal hygene. We are not all filthy, so please don't imply that.

There ARE smoke free pubs by the way, just not many of them. You recognise the difference between the supply and the demand, and also the different markets for smoke free pubs... there might well be an over supply of workers for smoke free pubs, but whilst the demand for smoke free pubs from consumers (i.e., drinkers and eaters) then there will be less smoke free pubs. Seriously, I might not be expressing this very well, but in the current situation, economics explains all of it.

[Buddy]

My husband works in Eire and he is a smoker.trionam is quite correct in saying provisions are made but he really doesnt bother smoking much if he is out.It is 'policed' by people who look like ordinary punters but if they find even one person smoking in a pub the Landlord is fined something like 6000 euros and the offender 2000 euros (please correct me if I am wrong) - but it is a phenomenal amount.The result is no-one smokes and even more quirkily smokers dont complain.No-one stops you smoking in your own house so its not a blanket ban!

[sandbach99]

I have a chest ailment therefore do not normally go to any pubs on holiday in Ireland it was lovely to be able to go out and enjoy the hospitality. The smokers went outside often leaving drinks handbags behind and nobody bothered. The Irish we spoke to said the pubs did initially loose a bit of trade but most seemed very busy maybe the threat of a large fine ensures the law is upheld.

But there again in Ireland they do not seem to have the minority that the rest of the British Isles seem to have that the law does not apply to them.
An enclosed smoking room is not satisfactory, what happens to the smoke when the door is opened time and time again?

[forgetfultel]

OK - I'm a heavy smoker, and I've read all your posts!

I've been going to both Ireland and America for 10 years, and thought you might like my observations.
In San Francisco, we found that we could smoke in a particular bar, with the "smoking police" (yes they do have them) not bothering anyone. The bar staff told me they cannot stop you from smoking, so they provide an ash tray so the place remains tidier. I got the impression that everyone knew you could smoke there, so the non-smokers went elsewhere, and the bar staff employed people who smoke!
In Phoenix, some parts brought in the ban, others did not. We stayed at a hotel on one side of Scottsdale Rd which was "smoking", but occasionally went across the road to a "non-smoking" part of the city. The non-s bar had facilities outside including TV's, heaters, tables and chairs, and there weeremore people outside than in. Trust me the bar was almost deserted in the non-s part, whereas when we went 3 years previously it was heaving, and one of our favourite nightspots.

In Ireland, the pub we have used every year for 9 years has lost so much revenue, it has changed hands each of the last 2 years (since smoking was banned), and now does food, to try to make up the lost revenue. None of the bars, we have been to in Ireland are as busy as they used to be, and I'm sure some haveclosed, and more will follow. This goes towards your point about leading to unemployment rising Daks.

Friends of mine (both ex-smokers and Irish coincidentaly) run a pub in Belgravia, and are away at the moment for 2 months deciding what to do with their future, because they know that the smoking ban (which will undoubtedly arrive), will mean the loss of their livelihood - the current number of pubs cannot be sustained with income from non-smokers, and those willing to stand outside in the cold.

[KittyGlitter]

Yes smoking should be banned in all public workplaces. This is isn't about preaching to the nation and banning smoking. Everyone knows it bad for them but they are entitled to make their own decisions when they aren't affecting other people. Unfortunately, smoking in indoor spaces does affect other people. The public need to be protected against second hand smoke.

[Dakota]

We have a bar in Aberdeen that is a completely non smoking establishment (I believe it's a chain so you probably have the same one near you too). People are free to choose whether they drink in this establishment or not

Would it be too much to ask for each licenced (non food) establishment to apply for a smoking licence? and X amount in the city get granted this application or not?

Licenced establishments in Aberdeen have to apply for a late licence, some are accepted and some are turned down.

This way a happy medium is gained with people free to make the choice wether they wish to drink and work in each of these options

[forgetfultel]

That is the most sensible thing I've heard on this argument Daks. Let's face it, with �10.5 Billion of revenue from smokers, why not use some on letting smokers continue to provide income to the treasury, and still lt them enjoy a pint.

[Loosehead]

How do you know JB? You can't smell yourself when you get into the lift having just been outside smoking and then sprayed whatever you think will disguise it. I on the other hand get a cocktail of smoke and whatever spray/perfume you just used. I'm sorry if this is a shock but I'm sure other non smokers will tell you also that you cannot disguise the smell except by abstension for days or possibly with a high powered chemical.

[maggie01]

I hate smoking full stop but if people want to smoke then I think there should be somewhere they can do it without affecting the non-smokers. I think it is a known fact that smoking is becoming an anti-social habbit. A lot of restaurants are non smoking now but I can't quite see pubs here going completly non smoking. I think they would lose a lot of buisness.

[january_bug]

I kow because I've asked people ok? I take a great pride in my personal appearance and I don't like personal attacks from people who don't know me. I have asked plenty of non-smokers for their honest opinions. They are alaways honest about me about everything else, so I see no reason why they'd lie on this one. Please stop generalising about people you've never met. I'm sure you're only doing it to wind me up, but it's plain rude - and it's insulting to more people than me, even if they don't have the guts to speak up. Plus, it adds nothing to the debate as it's just boring below the belt insults, that are naff all to do with the ban on smoking in enclosed public places.

Daks - that idea, about the licences is FAB! That way, pub who REALLY felt that allowing smoking is worth it to them, would be able to continue. And, as I tried to say earlier, the market would be able to continue to decide. You should be an MP/MSP! :-)

OH - and re the sealed rooms. Bouncers perfectly well enforce rules about not taking your pint out with you, I'm sure they could do the same with cigarettes. Most pubs with a smoking area enforce that rule, it's the SMOKE, not the PEOPLE that breaks the rule! And therein lies the problem, solved by walls and a door. You could always have two doors - as is required by law between a kitchen and a loo!

[Dom Tuk]

Ireland has very effectively enforced a ban on smoking in pubs and public places. The irish are big time smokers and are equal to if not higher in the smoking league than the british. The law was effective because most people are law abiding and breaches of the law are very very rare. In fact publicans claim that their staff and clients are happier now and trade has not diminished. Pity our govt does not have the guts to follow the Irish, scottish and Northern Irish steps.

[trionam]

In answer to your question dakota the pubs did go quiet for a while after the ban, my husband works for guinness and he was worried for a while that he might lose his job, but at the end of the day having a drink at home is not the same as going to the pub and the trade soon picked up again, a lot of the pubs had no smoking facilities when the ban came in first but they had to do something in order to the customers back especically when the cold weather came in.One of the things I noticed was a new bar that was built in our area paintined the walls cream so it was nice and bright inside they never would have done that before the band as the walls would have turned yellow from the smoke.

[jimmer]

January

Please get this idea out of your head that "the market" will sort out smoking to everyone's satisfaction. You study law, dang nabbit, health and safety at work? Say my boss pumps carcinogens into the atmosphere where I work. Are you really saying: "well, go and get another job if your not happy"? Or, should my boss have a duty of care?



jim

[january_bug]

I studIED, law, and then a masters in "law and economics" (which is the economic analysis of law, which can be applied directly to this situation). Jimmer, you're a smart bloke, surely you can grasp that a scholar of law does not study EVERY area of law, and every statute on the books in England and Wales.

From my masters, I can tell you that there are well proven theories about the liquidity of the labour market. Obviously some workers need protecting. However, in reality, there is enough choice within the general catering industry, that people do NOT need to work in smokey environments if they choose not to. It IS the market that determines who goes where. Catering workers might be on just over minimum wage, but they/we are not all retards and CAN work out where they/we want to work and go there, with a little bit of common sense!

ctd...

[january_bug]

Please don't tell me to "get it out of my head" when it seems that you don't want to listen to any of my arguements at all Jimmer! *is frustrated by, not angry, about this*. I appreciate that some workers need protecting, yes. But I don't believe that this is one of those situations. Well, I don't believe that catering workers need protection to the point of banning smoking in ALL public places. The measures I, and others here, have suggested would significantly improve the situation for them, without going the 'whole hog'.

I don't see road workers demanding traffic free highways because the pollution might give them lung cancer... yet what you breathe in whilst walking down the pavement of a busy road is worse than sitting for the same amount of time in a smokey pub. Why don't they complain!?! Because it's part and parcel of their work, and they choce that job after all.

Please at least consider my arguements. Disagree by all means, but please don't think me "silly" or "stupid" for making my arguements as I have. They are well thought out. If they turn out to be wrong, then fine, I'll concede. But I have thought this through, it's not just on a whim.

Thank you.

[jimmer]

Fair enough January. I understand your points. I appreciate that it is impossible to make life risk free and as i've said, I have no problem with people smoking ( i'm happy with people smoking in pubs). But, due to the nature of smoke it is not possible to create a safe environment for workers while smoking is allowed "in doors". This is why common sense cannot protect people who work in these atmospheres. The best ventilation systems in the world do not remove the carcinogens from cigarette smoke.

The market does not protect people, that is why we have regulation. My partner is an oncology nurse. She wears a radiation badge. When this badge indicates a maximum permitted exposure to radiation she is no longer allowed to administer radiotherapy. If nursing was deregulated we could probably find people prepared to do her job regardless of the risks. Why don't we? and why shouldn't we afford the same standards of safety to people in the catering industry?



jim

[Haggisdj]

Should be banned everywhere... and sorry JB I agree with LooseHead. The smell of smoke and whatever you try to cover it up with is disgusting. Nothing takes it away. To try you shower and wash your hair, have a cigarette, and hey presto it's back with all day/evening again.