ChatterBank5 mins ago
Brexit: Think Again
Michael Morpurgo argues it's time to think again over Brexit.
"It is surely time to accept that we have made a mistake", he writes, "that whichever way we voted, things are not turning out the way we expected".
"Or are we too proud?" he asks.
Listen, if you're not one of the shouty brigade, to Morpurgo's reasoned argument on BBC4's Point of View
https:/
It's only ten minutes long, and will give you cause/pause for thought.
BillB
"It is surely time to accept that we have made a mistake", he writes, "that whichever way we voted, things are not turning out the way we expected".
"Or are we too proud?" he asks.
Listen, if you're not one of the shouty brigade, to Morpurgo's reasoned argument on BBC4's Point of View
https:/
It's only ten minutes long, and will give you cause/pause for thought.
BillB
Answers
Sir Michael Andrew Bridge Morpurgo, OBE, FRSL, FKC, DL is an English book author, poet, playwright, and librettist who is known best for children's novels such as War Horse. Although aimed primarily at young people, these can be read by people of all ages. I have heard him talk and it was one of the most enjoyable talks I have been to. Will listen to his argument...
10:23 Sun 05th Aug 2018
Garaman - // As Khandro says, it is questionable why a media outlet would air someone's view when it is no more valid than yours or mine. //
This underlines the nonsense of the Brexit observations, which I have been hammering on about on here since the vote.
No-one knows what is going to happen, the best we can hope for us informed guesses, but however informed they are, they are still just that - guesses, because this is new territory for everyone.
All we get is people pedalling their agenda, and attempting to support it with predictions which may, or may not, come true.
It is pointless - the process is under way and will completed, there will then be an adjustment period, and then we can assess what was right and what was wrong.
Anything up to then is bar-room lawyering, regardless of who is saying it.
This underlines the nonsense of the Brexit observations, which I have been hammering on about on here since the vote.
No-one knows what is going to happen, the best we can hope for us informed guesses, but however informed they are, they are still just that - guesses, because this is new territory for everyone.
All we get is people pedalling their agenda, and attempting to support it with predictions which may, or may not, come true.
It is pointless - the process is under way and will completed, there will then be an adjustment period, and then we can assess what was right and what was wrong.
Anything up to then is bar-room lawyering, regardless of who is saying it.
"..and I resent the implication from Remainers that I was being naive and / or dim the first time, and they knew best."
Completely understandable of course, as is the feeling from the opposite camp that being labelled Vichy British, traitors, moaners etc etc by some is completely out of order.
When they start I get a picture of a red-faced, paunchy object with an elbow on the golf club bar, holding forth to anyone prepared to bolster his fragile ego with their agreement.
Completely understandable of course, as is the feeling from the opposite camp that being labelled Vichy British, traitors, moaners etc etc by some is completely out of order.
When they start I get a picture of a red-faced, paunchy object with an elbow on the golf club bar, holding forth to anyone prepared to bolster his fragile ego with their agreement.
Ichkeria, //Persevering with Brexit (what did you think!)
If no one wants it :-)//
No one? Remainers want what’s on offer. Leavers want Brexit. If a re-think is to be had, Remainers need to abandon their duplicitous Newspeak, scrap their devious, manipulative ways, go back to the drawing board, and deliver, as was promised, Brexit. It wouldn't be quite so bad if they weren't making fools of themselves - and the country - but they are. 'Remainers' - remaining puppets of the EU.
If no one wants it :-)//
No one? Remainers want what’s on offer. Leavers want Brexit. If a re-think is to be had, Remainers need to abandon their duplicitous Newspeak, scrap their devious, manipulative ways, go back to the drawing board, and deliver, as was promised, Brexit. It wouldn't be quite so bad if they weren't making fools of themselves - and the country - but they are. 'Remainers' - remaining puppets of the EU.
I left the local bowling club recently, that was because I don't want to pay the cost of membership, they had given me a discount on each occasion I made a fuss, which was twice, but I still was not happy. Also, the rules of the game as they played it were/are obviously complete nonsense because I can't move my piece around at will. When I said I wanted, as a non-member, to come and take part in the bowling whenever I wanted and by my rules, they had the audacity to tell me I couldn't. Moreover, they have told me that they will not allow me to enjoy the facilities of the excellent club house - they actually told me that if I was not a member then I could not use it and that I would be stopped at the gate. Without a semblance of fairness or common decency they are treating me terribly badly, I on the other hand have shown nothing but magnanimity, wisdom and even handed good sense. This is of course what I expected all along. I don't want to be a member of the club and I have been at pains to explain that I only want to use the facilities sometimes, they need my involvement as much as I need the club - I just want to make my own decisions on how I use the club and I won't pay anything toward it. Why should they set conditions on my involvement, it's my life isn't it ?
"It is surely time to accept that we have made a mistake"
No, clearly no mistake, why even suggest it ?
"Whichever way we voted, things are not turning out the way we expected".
No, but there again the situation is dynamic, no one is controlled to do the right thing, and no one wanted to believe the EU would be so intransigent as to cut off their own nose to spite their face; but one deals with life's disappointments, not collapse our aims at the slightest hurdle.
"Or are we too proud?"
Pride has B all to do with it, and your attempt to use emotions to sway is noted.
"We changed our minds, thought again, brought back a king"
Well not everyone gets things right, our ancestors clearly made some howlers in the past, as you indicated; but there again maybe they felt they had little ability to control parliament at that stage and for some mad reason thought controlling monarchy would be easier.
"And we can remove governments we do not like"
This is important, we can get rid of leaders, at least in the House of Commons. Unlike the EU Commission. But one needs to keep in mind that we have limited choices as we have allowed parties to form and they don't go away, it going to be one inadequate lot or another put into power each election. We change our minds and put another elite group in to boss us around, so the system isn't truly democratic yet.
"Forming a trading club of friendly democratic nations was the only way to create a lasting peace"
Well one can dispute that thought, I certainly would. But even if it is accepted (and one then needs to ask why they want a hard border in Ireland if that interested in peace) then perhaps they should have kept it a trading club. The issue is that they did not.
"And in 1975, just to be sure the people supported the idea of belonging to this new Europe, we held a referendum"
I find that description disingenuous. If they wanted to know that, the referendum would have been held before entry, plus the lies about it being a trading club only would have been admitted to and the true nature of the beast explained. In fact all the referendum told us was that now someone has dragged us in unasked, and we are told it's simply a trading group, do we wish to reverse it already before we have had much experience of it. Folk made a decision based on trade with neighbours not on becoming a minor area in a Europe wide "nation".
"For forty years we have been members of this club"
Getting more and more disillusioned with every change signed up to by inadequate PMs.
"Pressure for ever closer union"
Gradually it became clear that this meant being one nation under an unelected elite, not simply getting common standards for trade.
"Erstwhile enemies"
Times change, an enemy one moment is a friend the next. Emotional appeals tying together peace to the EU is unreasonable. Does anyone think we'd be at war with Europe now if the EU didn't exist ? That the EU exists interfering in nations’ affairs is causing more strife than peace at present. He's just storytelling at this point.
"This country benefitted greatly from being in Europe"
Well one could not be both in and out to compare; but even, for the sake of argument, we believed that we were economically better off, it came with far too high a cost. And that is the issue, not the flowery, ”we may have made a bit more wealth; perhaps”.
"We had a shared sovereignty now"
One doesn't share sovereignty one has it or not. For sure, one can give up bits gradually, and that is what has occurred and continues to do so. But nothing is shared. We have what we still retain, the EU has what we gave away. This is the cost that is unacceptable. It is why we can not "think again" as it is the goal we were courageous enough to vote for in the last referendum, and which those who don't value democracy is trying to overturn by putting fear into any waverers.
No, clearly no mistake, why even suggest it ?
"Whichever way we voted, things are not turning out the way we expected".
No, but there again the situation is dynamic, no one is controlled to do the right thing, and no one wanted to believe the EU would be so intransigent as to cut off their own nose to spite their face; but one deals with life's disappointments, not collapse our aims at the slightest hurdle.
"Or are we too proud?"
Pride has B all to do with it, and your attempt to use emotions to sway is noted.
"We changed our minds, thought again, brought back a king"
Well not everyone gets things right, our ancestors clearly made some howlers in the past, as you indicated; but there again maybe they felt they had little ability to control parliament at that stage and for some mad reason thought controlling monarchy would be easier.
"And we can remove governments we do not like"
This is important, we can get rid of leaders, at least in the House of Commons. Unlike the EU Commission. But one needs to keep in mind that we have limited choices as we have allowed parties to form and they don't go away, it going to be one inadequate lot or another put into power each election. We change our minds and put another elite group in to boss us around, so the system isn't truly democratic yet.
"Forming a trading club of friendly democratic nations was the only way to create a lasting peace"
Well one can dispute that thought, I certainly would. But even if it is accepted (and one then needs to ask why they want a hard border in Ireland if that interested in peace) then perhaps they should have kept it a trading club. The issue is that they did not.
"And in 1975, just to be sure the people supported the idea of belonging to this new Europe, we held a referendum"
I find that description disingenuous. If they wanted to know that, the referendum would have been held before entry, plus the lies about it being a trading club only would have been admitted to and the true nature of the beast explained. In fact all the referendum told us was that now someone has dragged us in unasked, and we are told it's simply a trading group, do we wish to reverse it already before we have had much experience of it. Folk made a decision based on trade with neighbours not on becoming a minor area in a Europe wide "nation".
"For forty years we have been members of this club"
Getting more and more disillusioned with every change signed up to by inadequate PMs.
"Pressure for ever closer union"
Gradually it became clear that this meant being one nation under an unelected elite, not simply getting common standards for trade.
"Erstwhile enemies"
Times change, an enemy one moment is a friend the next. Emotional appeals tying together peace to the EU is unreasonable. Does anyone think we'd be at war with Europe now if the EU didn't exist ? That the EU exists interfering in nations’ affairs is causing more strife than peace at present. He's just storytelling at this point.
"This country benefitted greatly from being in Europe"
Well one could not be both in and out to compare; but even, for the sake of argument, we believed that we were economically better off, it came with far too high a cost. And that is the issue, not the flowery, ”we may have made a bit more wealth; perhaps”.
"We had a shared sovereignty now"
One doesn't share sovereignty one has it or not. For sure, one can give up bits gradually, and that is what has occurred and continues to do so. But nothing is shared. We have what we still retain, the EU has what we gave away. This is the cost that is unacceptable. It is why we can not "think again" as it is the goal we were courageous enough to vote for in the last referendum, and which those who don't value democracy is trying to overturn by putting fear into any waverers.
Half way through and he's not got to a point yet. On about how awful the latest referendum campaign was.
I note he doesn't mention "democracy undermined" at the 1975 election, but saves it for the latest one.
He then implies we are trusting America to "see us right" but he must be aware that there is a whole world out there, and under WTO we can still trade with Europe anyway. He seems a bit biased to me, trying to persuade with dishonestly that he frowned on previously when referring to the referendum.
And he exaggerates the thrust of the leave campaign in order to mock. Any issues and delays seem to be from the EU who suggest little of their own but reject that put to them. Had they opted to be mature there would have been decent progress but if they can't be, then we cope fine.
"It does not seem so simple does it"
Depends on how you look at it. Much of the complexity revolves around us bending over backwards to get a decent deal with a group uninterested in making one. It's still relatively simple to stop trying and start leaving. Sure there are changes to put into place, but that’s inevitable during a transition.
"Dance to our tune"
Or in less biased language, agree to reasonable requests that benefit both and stop refusing to budge from your, "we aren't moving it's punishment only for you that we're interested in", stance.
"Old angers revive"
I'm unsure that's true. Sure we can rightly feel peed off with their intransigence, but we aren't screaming for military action. It's all blatant exaggeration. And if we eave with no deal, the EU nations will see the sense in making a deal after their bluff has been called. They just have to lean on the EU elite.
"Brexit did not mean Brexit"
Well to most of us it still does but a few do seem to be under the delusion that it means stay in, and be out in name only. Hopefully this will be rejected. If not then we will have to put up with the mess the politicians make for a decade or two then try again. And our politicians will be to blame. Still; better to have made some progress even if to a temporary worse position (if it turns out to be so) than still be stuck there.
"And more isolated"
Oh give us a break, all nations are looking out for themselves, we won't be isolated so much as free in a globe full of potential trading partners. " He clearly has no faith in his nation nor in the traders it has. He should be ashamed of himself for having such a dismal opinion of his country and its people. It's a continuation of project fear isn't it !
NHS workers don't need to leave but it is good if we train our own people and reduce the welfare costs. NI border issues are 100% down to EU intransigence. We can still leave our side open, go ask the RoI whether they intend to block it on their side; it's their choice. The RoI can not dictate what the UK does. The largely European workforce need not leave but if they do then we have unemployed already and there are other areas of the work wanting temporary work. Again project fear. If the enterprise is viable it'll continue, it not then it ceases, moves investment elsewhere in a UK company, and some other UK enterprise takes its place.
"We are on a hiding to nothing"
More erroneous opinion and more blatantly a continuation of project fear. This isn't a reasonable statement, anyone can see that it's pure propaganda.
"Unbelievable complexities"
Really ? Plenty here not only believed them but predicted them. Of course it is made more complex by the way the government is going about it. Trying to be both in and out.
"Cabinet struggles"
Only because they don't stop trying to negotiate with those who are uninterested and start the exit process.
"Impossible position we find ourselves in"
What impossible position ? It's turned from spin to lies now has it ?
"Accept that we have made a mistake"
Only in as much as we are still trying to be reasonable. We need to go.
Then more gibberish about thinking again and being too proud, as if either has any validity.
"Europe has, after all, very largely achieved its main goal"
Sure, its main goal is control of the member countries. That's why we need to exit.
"To preserve the peace"
Get real, who would claim we'd be at war now without the EU ? Trade and an understanding of how things went wrong in the past, ensures cooperation, not some controlling group.
"Trade, travel, education and culture"
And you can't do that as independent nations in a modern world because ? A ridiculous claim.
"Desert each other in times of trouble"
More propaganda. Leaving a club that is too controlling is not deserting, it is applying common sense to get out of an unacceptable situation.
"Not the time to turn our backs on them"
More propaganda. Leaving a club that is too controlling is not turning our backs on any nation, it is applying common sense to get out of an unacceptable situation.
"We should stay in the European family"
Presumably you mean the EU, and so no, we should not. Everything indicates how bad it is, and one needs to bite the bullet and get out. The majority of the people realised this and voted accordingly. Besides no mention has been made of how poor the terms would be if we were daft enough to show ourselves flip flopping out of fear because of the doomsayers. The very idea of volunteering for that is pure madness.
"Argue our case"
Has the guy been deaf to our trying to get the EU sorted in the past ? It won't change as long as the EU elite hold power and promote those who agree with them. Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas. There comes a time when hitting your head against the brick wall becomes obviously futile to even the most EUphile.
"It’s not too late"
To ruin our nation by asking to be dominated again
"Let’s do it"
The moment we lose our sanity.
This is why I rarely watch posted video links. Someone think they're worthwhile but they tend to turn out to be a waste of time and utter garbage. This is just a chatty version of remain propaganda that adds nothing but tries to appeal to the emotions by spreading fear. As per usual.
"Europe has, after all, very largely achieved its main goal"
Sure, its main goal is control of the member countries. That's why we need to exit.
"To preserve the peace"
Get real, who would claim we'd be at war now without the EU ? Trade and an understanding of how things went wrong in the past, ensures cooperation, not some controlling group.
"Trade, travel, education and culture"
And you can't do that as independent nations in a modern world because ? A ridiculous claim.
"Desert each other in times of trouble"
More propaganda. Leaving a club that is too controlling is not deserting, it is applying common sense to get out of an unacceptable situation.
"Not the time to turn our backs on them"
More propaganda. Leaving a club that is too controlling is not turning our backs on any nation, it is applying common sense to get out of an unacceptable situation.
"We should stay in the European family"
Presumably you mean the EU, and so no, we should not. Everything indicates how bad it is, and one needs to bite the bullet and get out. The majority of the people realised this and voted accordingly. Besides no mention has been made of how poor the terms would be if we were daft enough to show ourselves flip flopping out of fear because of the doomsayers. The very idea of volunteering for that is pure madness.
"Argue our case"
Has the guy been deaf to our trying to get the EU sorted in the past ? It won't change as long as the EU elite hold power and promote those who agree with them. Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas. There comes a time when hitting your head against the brick wall becomes obviously futile to even the most EUphile.
"It’s not too late"
To ruin our nation by asking to be dominated again
"Let’s do it"
The moment we lose our sanity.
This is why I rarely watch posted video links. Someone think they're worthwhile but they tend to turn out to be a waste of time and utter garbage. This is just a chatty version of remain propaganda that adds nothing but tries to appeal to the emotions by spreading fear. As per usual.
//deliver, as was promised, Brexit. //
Couple of questions...
Why is this the responsibility of Remainers?
How can you deliver Brexit 'as promised' when fundamentally contradictory promises were made? Leave EU promised we'd get complete disassociation, while Leave Alliance promised we'd get the 'Norway Option' and the official campaign switched between these positions on a daily (sometimes hourly) basis. How is it possible to deliver Brexit 'as promised' under those circumstances?
Couple of questions...
Why is this the responsibility of Remainers?
How can you deliver Brexit 'as promised' when fundamentally contradictory promises were made? Leave EU promised we'd get complete disassociation, while Leave Alliance promised we'd get the 'Norway Option' and the official campaign switched between these positions on a daily (sometimes hourly) basis. How is it possible to deliver Brexit 'as promised' under those circumstances?
Well, at least old geezer has listened to the talk, which is more than anybody else here has (anybody else who's arguing against it, that is), so respect for that - although I still find Morpugo's reasoned case more convincing that old geezer's shouty one.
Talking of shouty, if capitals are against the rules, then how the heck ARE we supposed to emphasise words, in the absence of italics, bold, underlining, etc?
BillB
Talking of shouty, if capitals are against the rules, then how the heck ARE we supposed to emphasise words, in the absence of italics, bold, underlining, etc?
BillB
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