ChatterBank8 mins ago
Measles Cases Soaring Across Europe
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The panic of the 1990s coming back to bite us?
Also spreading somewhat in the US too, albeit currently at much lower rates. But measles was declared extinct in the US only 18 years ago, so that it's back there at all is a cause for concern.
http://
The panic of the 1990s coming back to bite us?
Also spreading somewhat in the US too, albeit currently at much lower rates. But measles was declared extinct in the US only 18 years ago, so that it's back there at all is a cause for concern.
Answers
Still, those infected are easy to spot.
20:56 Mon 20th Aug 2018
Jim, //There is plenty of evidence that Wakefield's BS has caught on recently in America, so it's not exactly unreasonable to talk about it still.//
This isn’t about America. It’s about Europe.
//In the UK it never really went away, either, although as far as I can remember vaccination uptake has generally been increasing in the last decade.//
In that case it has gone away to a discernible degree.
//Let me be as clear as possible: you are wrong, and you have some research to do.//
Hmmm….. if rates were falling and are now suddenly at eight-year high across Europe, in the current climate I would suggest that you have some thinking to do. Ukrainians and Serbians travel too you know – and it doesn’t take much to spread disease.
This isn’t about America. It’s about Europe.
//In the UK it never really went away, either, although as far as I can remember vaccination uptake has generally been increasing in the last decade.//
In that case it has gone away to a discernible degree.
//Let me be as clear as possible: you are wrong, and you have some research to do.//
Hmmm….. if rates were falling and are now suddenly at eight-year high across Europe, in the current climate I would suggest that you have some thinking to do. Ukrainians and Serbians travel too you know – and it doesn’t take much to spread disease.
With respect to the Wakefield thing, it is worth pointing out that vaccination rates still haven't reached the recommended level of 95%, and only started to recover to the pre-Wakefield levels in around 2012. This leaves a period of around 10 years or so when around 1 in 5 children were not vaccinated, and some may never have rectified this in later life. As long as that generation is alive, then Wakefield's legacy is certainly alive and well, both in this country and in the US, as well as in Europe.
What he said very much is relevant, and remains so to this day. This much is uncontroversial: vaccine scare stories are dangerous to public health. As V-E pointed out, such scare stories aren't confined to Wakefield, but nor can he and those who support him hide from their responsibility.
What he said very much is relevant, and remains so to this day. This much is uncontroversial: vaccine scare stories are dangerous to public health. As V-E pointed out, such scare stories aren't confined to Wakefield, but nor can he and those who support him hide from their responsibility.
The Anti Vaccine movements go in fits and starts and always have done, they are alive and well at the moment and the Internet is an ideal tool for them.
My 14 year old Grandson tells me he has school pals who have been on these sites/blogs and some are seemingly convinced enough (so far at least ) to become 'Anti Vaccers' - being a sensible lad he told them they were misguided and to ask their parents.
My 14 year old Grandson tells me he has school pals who have been on these sites/blogs and some are seemingly convinced enough (so far at least ) to become 'Anti Vaccers' - being a sensible lad he told them they were misguided and to ask their parents.
Jim, the war in Syria has been going on for about 8 years. During that time we have seen a stream of refugees from the Middle East making their way into Europe, joined by a huge influx of economic migrants from the cess pits of Africa and elsewhere. What’s changed in the past 8 years? Derrr …. let me think. Nah. Best not dwell on that. I’ll shut my eyes and carry on blaming Wakefield for his report from 20 years ago. Much easier.
It is clear that the authorities concerned with monitoring this are far more concerned about the link to tourism, and the link to low vaccination levels here, than they are about immigration. It is simply not as major a contributing factor to the sudden spike. Everyone whose job it is to look after our health has made that observation.
I don't know why this is so hard for you to accept.
I don't know why this is so hard for you to accept.
Jim, //It is clear that the authorities concerned with monitoring this are far more concerned about the link to tourism, and the link to low vaccination levels here, than they are about immigration.//
No surprise there then. Lots of things have no connection to immigration – so the authorities tell us.
Krom, //Why does every bloody thread on the Answerbank always get dragged onto immigration?//
Every thread doesn’t get dragged into immigration. I think it’s extremely relevant to the OP here though.
Mamyalynne, if other points get lost in the to and fro, I can only assume that those points are of little interest to the majority of contributors to the thread.
No surprise there then. Lots of things have no connection to immigration – so the authorities tell us.
Krom, //Why does every bloody thread on the Answerbank always get dragged onto immigration?//
Every thread doesn’t get dragged into immigration. I think it’s extremely relevant to the OP here though.
Mamyalynne, if other points get lost in the to and fro, I can only assume that those points are of little interest to the majority of contributors to the thread.
>No surprise there then. Lots of things have no connection to immigration – so the authorities tell us.
So your logic, naomi, seems to be that immigration will be a factor, because you disbelieve the authorities hence why you keep saying it is so relevant to this thread despite all Jim's excellent points to which you have no meaningful answers.
So your logic, naomi, seems to be that immigration will be a factor, because you disbelieve the authorities hence why you keep saying it is so relevant to this thread despite all Jim's excellent points to which you have no meaningful answers.
fiction-factory, I have given what I believe to be a meaningful answer - and an entirely logical one. However, contrary to your assessment, I don’t believe Jim has made any excellent points and nor does he have a ‘meaningful answer’. He has offered tourism as a cause – but we’ve always travelled, so what’s changed to create this unexpected outbreak? He also suggests that a 20 year old report that initially impacted negatively upon vaccination rates - now by his own admission up - is suddenly responsible for a new measles epidemic- and all the while he totally discounts the fact that Europe has become the chosen destination for a multitude of people from Third World countries that are not the best at controlling disease. Jim’s meanderings, I believe, reflect his preferred world view rather than reality.
Oh, and yes, I do disbelieve the authorities.
Oh, and yes, I do disbelieve the authorities.
I haven't offered tourism as a cause: medical experts and frontline doctors across the world, as well as epidemiologists, whose job it is to study the spread of disease, have offered tourism as a cause. There are sound reasons to believe this and sound evidence to support it.
I am not discounting immigration as a factor, but I am placing it in its proper context: it's less important than tourism as a driver of short-term disease progression.
Nor is it an "admission" that vaccine rates are increasing, as if I was hiding this or unaware of it, or as if it undermines the case I'm making. It's a welcome trend, to be sure, but as long as rates are below the WHO target of 95% then it's still not sufficient to contain the spreading of infectious diseases if they catch on in a community.
Incidentally, this is exactly why tourism can be related: a disease only needs to infect one or two people, who then travel to a non-immune community, for it to catch on. Large-scale immigration can, of course, clearly play its part in long-term spreading of disease, but it's usually not a driver in short-term spikes, which is what this is most likely to be.
Your opinion on the authority of authorities is neither here nor there, and smacks of trying to generate the same conspiracy theories that led to Wakefield being taken seriously in the first place.
All you are doing is spreading disinformation, as well as completely irrational distrust in doctors and medical authorities, and there is no reason or justification for it.
I am not discounting immigration as a factor, but I am placing it in its proper context: it's less important than tourism as a driver of short-term disease progression.
Nor is it an "admission" that vaccine rates are increasing, as if I was hiding this or unaware of it, or as if it undermines the case I'm making. It's a welcome trend, to be sure, but as long as rates are below the WHO target of 95% then it's still not sufficient to contain the spreading of infectious diseases if they catch on in a community.
Incidentally, this is exactly why tourism can be related: a disease only needs to infect one or two people, who then travel to a non-immune community, for it to catch on. Large-scale immigration can, of course, clearly play its part in long-term spreading of disease, but it's usually not a driver in short-term spikes, which is what this is most likely to be.
Your opinion on the authority of authorities is neither here nor there, and smacks of trying to generate the same conspiracy theories that led to Wakefield being taken seriously in the first place.
All you are doing is spreading disinformation, as well as completely irrational distrust in doctors and medical authorities, and there is no reason or justification for it.
I should finally add that Wakefield's lies may well have been released 20 years ago, but it is naive in the extreme to assume that this is the only time they have mattered, and that the story has died. It has not; only a cursory search on the internet would tell you so, and reveal that the story still has credence among the gullible even today.
The fact of the matter is that no amount of immigration or tourism would cause an increase in the number of cases worldwide, as long as people took vaccination seriously. Until then, the legacy of Wakefield, and other scaremongerers, lives on, and costs lives.
The fact of the matter is that no amount of immigration or tourism would cause an increase in the number of cases worldwide, as long as people took vaccination seriously. Until then, the legacy of Wakefield, and other scaremongerers, lives on, and costs lives.
Jim, //All you are doing is spreading disinformation, as well as completely irrational distrust in doctors and medical authorities, and there is no reason or justification for it.//
Not me spreading disinformation, Jim – blame the authorities for that – and all in the wonderful cause of multi-culturalism. I’ve seen enough of the authorities lauding the dubious benefits of immigration whilst systematically ignoring and excusing what, in a civilised world, should be completely unacceptable to all. Just as one of our own Labour politicians advised the victims of Pakistani grooming gangs to ‘shut their mouths for the good of diversity’ so the authorities are shutting their mouths for the good of diversity. That’s what it’s really all about, Jim. You want to believe it? Do it – but don’t expect me to. I’m not that gullible.
david small/hereIam, thank you.
Samuraisan , //Why won't immigrants/refugees let their offspring get vaccinated ? //
Often for superstitious reasons but in the case of the rejection of the polio vaccine in Nigeria, it was, in the main, because it was thought that the vaccine was contaminated with agents that would negatively affect fertility and cause cancer. Nonsense, of course, but that’s Third World superstition - and suspicion - for you.
Not me spreading disinformation, Jim – blame the authorities for that – and all in the wonderful cause of multi-culturalism. I’ve seen enough of the authorities lauding the dubious benefits of immigration whilst systematically ignoring and excusing what, in a civilised world, should be completely unacceptable to all. Just as one of our own Labour politicians advised the victims of Pakistani grooming gangs to ‘shut their mouths for the good of diversity’ so the authorities are shutting their mouths for the good of diversity. That’s what it’s really all about, Jim. You want to believe it? Do it – but don’t expect me to. I’m not that gullible.
david small/hereIam, thank you.
Samuraisan , //Why won't immigrants/refugees let their offspring get vaccinated ? //
Often for superstitious reasons but in the case of the rejection of the polio vaccine in Nigeria, it was, in the main, because it was thought that the vaccine was contaminated with agents that would negatively affect fertility and cause cancer. Nonsense, of course, but that’s Third World superstition - and suspicion - for you.
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