If There Were A General Election On Oct 14 ?

[johnny.5]

and a party stood as a remain party and won convincingly with the leave voters spreading their votes across other parties . Would we automatically remain within the EU ? or would there be another referendum with alternative options ?

[pixie374]

Yes, Jim. It is pure democracy to suggest that if you hold a referendum and promise to abide by it, that you actually do that.
If, in however many years after, there is another referendum asking who wants to rejoin. That is also fair.
Ignoring some results and listening to others... is dictatorship and nothing to do with democracy.

[jim360]

Perhaps, although since we were dealing in the hypothetical of them doing so I thought it best to assess their chances.

But there's trouble brewing in the Brexit camp. Farage clearly doesn't trust Johnson much so there's a good chance that Brexit Party and Tories won't do deals. So how much damage will they do to each other in the campaign? A few Tory marginals stolen by a spoiler effect letting Remain candidates in and who knows?

[jim360]

The 2016 Referendum has not been ignored. It led directly to the Notification under Article 50. We are in this position not because the result has been ignored but because the implementation matters -- or at least *should* matter -- and there is no agreement on how to implement.

[pixie374]

If it isn't carried through, by all intents and purposes, it has been "ignored". Nobody voted for "pretend to have a bash at it and then give up".

[cassa333]

The Torres are just as split as they’ve always been and if The Brexit party are savvy about where there candidates are put, ie in strong leave constituencies where there MP has consistently voted remain it could do well.

You could then see a Tory Brexit party alliance in government.

Admittedly not likely but possible.

[pixie374]

Their job is to sort out the implementation of it. They should have got rid of anyone who disagreed straight away. They were too busy attempting to remain, while pretending to the public we were leaving.

[TonyV]

We have had the vote already and decided to leave.

[pixie374]

In any case, nobody makes a long-standing decision on what is quickest and easiest. It is about looking at the future. Saying nobody knows how to do it, is just not a reason to change a decision.

[tonyav]

https://scontent.fman3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/69868110_10214669112216970_8477034324288339968_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_oc=AQnWf7qxPXCmPUPfgKzpyy3k0gDJfWA3j4KMACBxX6j8kJsai2ZpOYJFPh2bYPUbDfU&_nc_ht=scontent.fman3-1.fna&oh=97d6b42e16dadb3646ff5e60dd883668&oe=5E080F8B

[pixie374]

Hi Tony:-). Apparently.... we didn't know what we were voting for. And thought that included a deal... lol

[jim360]

// Their job is to sort out the implementation of it. They should have got rid of anyone who disagreed straight away. //

On which side of this would Boris Johnson be, then? He voted against the deal, then for it, and is now against it (but for most of it).

Also doesn't sorting out the implementation imply disagreement is almost inevitable? Still no excuse for dismissing those who disagree straightaway.

We come back to the same problem: how to achieve Brexit? And can you get enough people to support *your* understanding of how? We are about to find out. It's worth noting that in 2017's edition of Brexit elections, the Tories campaigned on the promise to negotiate a deal with the EU, and didn't do too badly out of it. Yes, they had the line "no deal is better than a bad deal", but there's even division over whether or not this was a bad deal, division on how to improve the present deal -- and, of course, division over whether the Tories even meant that bit in 2017 or not.

[Old_Geezer]

Folk don't need to agree on how to deliver Brexit. All they have to do is agree we are to leave which was the decision. Then realise the EU isn't interested in a deal, and just leave. Brexit done. No one has to be in limbo while the spoiler tactics continue forever from remoaner MPs. Remove those with no principles except getting their own way and stopping the process, and then get on with it.

[pixie374]

Jim, whatever his personal feelings are, if his aim is to deliver what the public want, that is fine- and that is his job. Most jobs don't mean doing always what you personally want...
Disagreement about how to implement it, may well be inevitable. But is obviously never an excuse just to give in entirely. Those that disagree, even after seeing the referendum result, are no use, as they are just sabotaging it. There should only have been people committed to leaving working on it- no matter what there personal feelings were.

[jim360]

// just leave. Brexit done. //

I mean, even if we just left it wouldn't be Brexit done by a long shot. Then all of the economic and political fallout happens, and we'd still have to negotiate further relations with the EU -- and from a weaker position at that. I mean, I admire your optimism in thinking that "just leaving" ends the issue, but it's clearly a nonsense. Even if we leave on 31st October it doesn't mark even remotely the end of the story.

But then neither would remaining (after a GE and/or 2nd referendum) if it comes to that. One side or the other, and quite possibly both, is going to harbour a great deal of resentment for a long time to come.

[pixie374]

Resentment would be very childish. I doubt anyone old enough to vote is quite that self-entitled and spoilt. It is also irrelevant.
Yes, there would be a lot of negotiation needed afterwards, but that should have happened a long time ago and we should have made a start by now. This dithering is really not helpful.

[Old_Geezer]

Oh, it would be done.
Adjusting to the new situation is post Brexit.

[jim360]

I don't mean to suggest that you'd be childish, pixie, but surely if indeed Brexit doesn't happen, would you not be seriously angry? Wouldn't you lose faith in the present set of politicians who let you down? Wouldn't you then wish to find a way to hold them to account for the failure to deliver what you thought they'd promised?

I don't think it would be remotely childish to be resentful as a Brexit supporter if that all happens. And the other way round, if you see your country torn out of the EU -- and if, as is expected, a great many other unpleasant consequences follow from that -- then how could you fault anyone who thought it was the wrong decision to begin with from despairing at the outcome?

[pixie374]

Jim, I'm sure the whole country, at least those with any integrity would be angry if a referendum was ignored. As a remainer, by now, I would have already accepted I was in the minority, and like it or not, I wouldn't assume my opinion was more important than everyone else's. There is no reason for Remainers to be resentful, as it is perfectly fair. Much more so, actually, than most votes. It was literally one per person. Even the plebs :-)

[pixie374]

And worrying about the outcome, would not give me the right to overturn it.

[naomi24]

//We are in this position not because the result has been ignored but because the implementation matters//

I read little after that. Global warming? No surprise with all the hot air being spouted over Brexit. Yes, the result has been ignored and the implementation does indeed matter – but it hasn’t happened - and that is why we are in this position.