Have We Been Duped By Boris?

[david small]

After all the shenanigans and bluster. Have we been misled, conned, by Boris.
Is no deal dead?

[ToraToraTora]

ich; "You seem to be suggesting that this is all a plot by him deliberately to fail. " - err fail? who said that? Failure would be if he gets this deal through!

[ichkeria]

It certainly won’t be the end of it that is for sure. There are trade negotiations to come and that would be the case even in a no deal scenario.
Better to have negotiations tho with people you’ve shaken with on a deal than fallen out with.

[DTCwordfan]

anybody want a bet against my view that a parallel side-agreement discussion between the DUMPs and Boris's Mob is underway and, lo, on Saturday, the sun will shine out of the Ulster Protestant rears.....

[New Judge]

//He has dealt with the Irish issue ...,//

No he hasn't. All this deal has done is shift the border from the island of Ireland (which upset the Republicans) to the Irish Sea (which upsets the Unionists - and me).

It's unfortunate for the Irish on both sides of the divide but they must realise that Ireland and the UK are separate countries. To insist on them being shackled together ad infinitum is just daft and the root cause of the current impasse is the ridiculous devolution arrangements introduced by Mr Blair. If they want a borderless island either Ireland should join the UK or Northern Ireland join the Republic.

Having said that, I'm afraid I don't share Tora's optimism that this makes No Deal more likely. There is no way that the current Westminster reprobates will allow a No Deal exit. If push comes to shove they'll revoke A50 entirely as they will relentlessly pursue their strategy of rejecting everything put before them (and I only hope they reject this latest attempt at BRINO).

[ichkeria]

It’s hard to see, after what they’ve said so far, how the DUP could possibly save any face at all by retracting.
Their opposition seemed pretty implacable and absolute.
Interestingly the other Unionist party has now come out stating plainly that they want NI to remain in the EU.

[ichkeria]

NJ having a border in Ireland upsets everyone.
I can only repeat that he had dealt with it, in the sense he had addressed it, but there is no solution that can solve every issue. In fairness to him, that is not his fault,

[jim360]

TTT's interpretation makes no sense, not least because Johnson has no control over the situation. If he refuses to send the letter requesting an extension then he is breaking the law, and would at that point be thrown out of office, and the matter is no longer in his hands. If he sends the letter then it's the EU's decision whether or not to grant an extension. If it does, it's out of his hands. If the EU refuses an extension, that is still out of his hands -- and, what is more, I think it likely that there would be a majority in Parliament for revoking Article 50, or at least passing the necessary legislation, in that circumstance.

In every scenario, therefore, Johnson has no control over the question of whether or not there is a No Deal exit. Instead, he has bent over backwards, and abandoned most of his red lines -- including some he resigned over back in the day -- in order to secure a deal, any deal, that he can claim his own.

[Old_Geezer]

Any party responsible for revoking democracy can wave goodbye to holding power in the foreseeable future. Only majority antidemocratic voter constituencies would touch a candidate voting for that with better than a 20' bargepole.

[jim360]

Becomes a question then of how seriously you take the threat of No Deal. The present Parliament takes it very seriously indeed, which is why I think they'd go for the nuclear option if it came to it. Let us hope not, because I do agree that it would be politically disastrous -- winning a battle but probably losing a war -- but in a choice between economic and political disaster I think most would opt for the second.

[jourdain2]

Well, from what I gather, M. Barnier has said, very firmly 'No further extension'. This is good news for Brexiters and leaves the choice between Boris' deal and W.T.O. terms. So far as the Benn act is concerned - Boris's deal (and I'd prefer W.T.O. t.b.h.) is the only one on the table.
So, how can they now vote against it? Venality?

[Mozz71]

Barnier has no say over any extension, that can only be agreed by the leaders of the EU members.

[naomi24]

Popcorn anyone?

[Mozz71]

Got none left Naomi. I ate all mine while reading the "Does God exist?" thread ;-)

[diddlydo]

The simplest and most satisfactory way out of all this is to revoke Article 50. End of farcical saga and life goes on as normal.

[douglas9401]

Careful now diddlydo, you'll be in Tora's book. :-)

[Jackdaw33]

I can't see this deal passing; too many hard-line Brexiters on the Tory benches. Any attempt to revoke A 50 will cause civil unrest on a scale not seen before.

[diddlydo]

TTT would do well to remember/be told how hard we fought to get into the EU (or Common Market as it was then) before spouting the ridiculous rants that have become his/her watchword.

[Jackdaw33]

The Bill to join the EEC was passed by only 8 votes, and that was with the help of the Liberals.

[New Judge]

//NJ having a border in Ireland upsets everyone.//

Then they need to get over themselves and grow up. They live in two different countries and that usually means borders.


//Well, from what I gather, M. Barnier has said, very firmly 'No further extension'. This is good news for Brexiters and leaves the choice between Boris' deal and W.T.O. terms.//

‘Fraid not, naomi. As Jim points out, such is the opposition to No Deal I believe Parliament would rather revoke A50 and damn the consequences. It is an ideal opportunity for the Remainers to prevail and they will blame the unsuitability of the only deal on offer. It was laid bare a few months ago that their objection was not to any deal that may be forthcoming but to leaving itself.

//End of farcical saga and life goes on as normal.//

If you believe that remaining in the EU will see your life go on as normal you need to examine the EU’s aims, objectives and current plans. It depends how much abnormality you are prepared to tolerate.

[naomi24]

diddlydo, and you would do well to remember that the Common Market no longer exists.