Salmond Innocent

[Ken4155]

Just been announced on Radio 2 that he has been found innocent of all charges.

[andy-hughes]

I am always wary of using the term 'innocent' when the actual judgement is 'not guilty', or in Scotland, 'not proven'.

The fact that Mr Salmond has been found not guilty means that the jury does not agree there is sufficient evidence presented to them to convict him. That is not the same as saying he has done nothing wrong.

jack's point - // I read that he had said that he ".....could have behaved in a better manner" which is, at least, tacit acknowledgement that the aggrieved women may have had a point.... //

does indicate that some unacceptable behaviour appears to have occurred.

It reminds me of Dave Lee Travis's defence against accusations of groping - "I'm a touchy feely person ... "

which translates as 'I love grabbing women and invading their personal space and dignity because I think it makes me look cuddly and cute, and I utterly lack the empathy and awareness to understand that I do not have an automatic right to invade the personal pace of others and inflict my 'affection' on them whether they like it or not.'

[steg]

//I am always wary of using the term 'innocent' when the actual judgement is 'not guilty', or in Scotland, 'not proven'. //

Aren’t you innocent until proven guilty?

[Neveracrossword]

Steg, a good point - Innocent until proven guilty is, or is supposed to be, a cornerstone of our justice system.

[steg]

//The fact that Mr Salmond has been found not guilty means that the jury does not agree there is sufficient evidence presented to them to convict him. That is not the same as saying he has done nothing wrong. //

In Scotland it’s proven(guilty), not proven or not guilty
Your above statement sums up not proven verdict

[andy-hughes]

steg - // //I am always wary of using the term 'innocent' when the actual judgement is 'not guilty', or in Scotland, 'not proven'. //

Aren’t you innocent until proven guilty? //

Yes - but that is because your case has yet to be heard.

It is a fine distinction, but an important one, that the Not Guilty verdict indicates that the prosecution failed to prove its case to the satisfaction of the jury - beyond reasonable doubt - but that is not the same as saying that someone is 'innocent' in the legal sense of the word.

[Ken4155]

Just looked up the definition of 'innocent' and the first example shown is; "Adjective. 1. Not guilty of a crime or offence"

[Neveracrossword]

AH, what is the legal definition of 'innocent'? Is there one?

[andy-hughes]

steg - // Your above statement sums up not proven verdict //

In the Scottish court that may well be the case, but since in English courts the term 'not proven' is not a concept they embrace - it does not apply to their use of the terms 'innocent' and 'guilty'.

[Ken4155]

So if the jury had declared him 'guilty' that would mean he had definitely done it. But 'not guilty' doesn't mean he definitely didn't do it. He, no doubt, will say his innocence has been proved. Others will say "There's no smoke without fire."

[andy-hughes]

Neveracrossword - // AH, what is the legal definition of 'innocent'? Is there one? //

Innocent
adj. without guilt (not guilty). Usually the plea which an accused criminal defendant gives to the court at the time of his/her first appearance (or after a continued appearance). Such pleas often disturb the public in cases in which guilt seems obvious from the start. However, everyone is entitled to a fair trial, and the innocent plea gives defense lawyers an opportunity to investigate, find extenuating circumstances, develop reasons punishment should be lenient, bargain with the District Attorney, and let the memories of witnesses fade. (See: plea, plea bargain, arraignment)

[steg]

//In the Scottish court that may well be the case, but since in English courts the term 'not proven' is not a concept they embrace - it does not apply to their use of the terms 'innocent' and 'guilty'.//

He’s was tried under Scottish law in Scottish court

[andy-hughes]

Ken - // So if the jury had declared him 'guilty' that would mean he had definitely done it. But 'not guilty' doesn't mean he definitely didn't do it. He, no doubt, will say his innocence has been proved. Others will say "There's no smoke without fire." //

Indeed.

A member of my family was involved in a case of child abuse against a colleague which the CPS declined to take to court, and the accused spent the next few months trumpeting her 'innocence' to anyone who would listen.

The reality is that, in the interest of saving money, the DPP only take to court cases which they believe they have a realistic chance of winning, and this was not one of those. Because the bulk of the evidence came from children under the age of criminal responsibility, the CPS decided they would not win their case.

It did not mean that the accused was 'innocent' - I saw the evidence, and I know she was as guilty as sin, but that is how the law works.

[Neveracrossword]

Thanks, AH- as that opens with 'not guilty', I think your feelings of wariness are less relevant.

[andy-hughes]

steg - // //In the Scottish court that may well be the case, but since in English courts the term 'not proven' is not a concept they embrace - it does not apply to their use of the terms 'innocent' and 'guilty'.//

He’s was tried under Scottish law in Scottish court //

I am aware of that - and you will not that the 'Not proven' verdict was only offered in one count.

I am discussing the legal terms in general terms, rather than specifically what applies in one court or the other.

[andy-hughes]

Never - // Thanks, AH- as that opens with 'not guilty', I think your feelings of wariness are less relevant. //

My view is not based on 'wariness' - in the instance of Mr Salmond, I am simply stating the facts - that the prosecution failed to prove its case to the satisfaction of the jury.

I was not in court, I know no more than anyone else on here who is simply offering a view - nothing more than that.

[Ken4155]

Andy, I think there is quite a stark difference between the CPS believing there's not enough evidence for a conviction, and a jury sitting for weeks, hearing all the evidence, then coming to a not guilty conclusion. Someone who is accused but never tried for an offence will have a very hard time persuading anyone of his/her innocence.

[steg]

He was tried in Scottish court so the only relevant meanings are under Scottish law

[Neveracrossword]

AH, as innocent means not guilty, as you quoted, it is perfectly valid for people to use the word when referring to verdicts such as this. I can understand why you - and many others - don't like that. The details of the trial - this or any other - can result in much debate, of course. Your view on this trial is as valid as anyone else's, as is your interpretation of the terminology.

[andy-hughes]

Never - // AH, as innocent means not guilty, as you quoted, it is perfectly valid for people to use the word when referring to verdicts such as this. I can understand why you - and many others - don't like that. The details of the trial - this or any other - can result in much debate, of course. Your view on this trial is as valid as anyone else's, as is your interpretation of the terminology. //

Thank you for your assessment of my view.

It is entirely personal, and I am sure that were I found 'Not Guilty' in a court, I would be telling everyone that I was 'innocent'.

Wheras I would hesitate to use the cynical and often inappropriate view 'No smoke without fire ...' I am sure that many will view the fact that Mr Salmond was in court at all as indication that he must have 'done something'.

The point remains that the accusations were not proved satisfactorily, and Mr Salmond can return to his life, and hopefully put the experience behind him - until he composes his memoirs that is,

[Neveracrossword]

Thanks, AH. It is hard for anyone who's had involvement with the law, trials and so on, to realise how dispassionate it can be in its terminology.