Jimmy Saville

[sp1814]

Think of it this way...Jimmy Saville.

Whilst he was alive, he raised about £40m for Stoke Mandeville Hospital. He was a hero. A national treasure. He earned an O.B.E.

Then he was knighted.

If in the 1970s, Stoke Mandeville decided to erect a statue in honour of him, knowing what we now know - isn’t it understandable that people would want it removed?

Wouldn’t the children of those that Saville abused not want to see a public monument to him?

[Togo]

I'm sure that Saville had a statue erected in his honour in Scotland, and a cosy little holiday cottage. Oh dear we will be "knocking Scotland down" next. What will we do with all that rubble? Perhaps fix the potholes in our roads eh?

[sp1814]

Togo

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-19822384

[tiggerblue10]

There were many petitions over the years to remove Edward Colstons statue and each of them failed.

I don't agree with tearing down statues and never will but, maybe this is the time to change the way things are done and have a democratic vote of the local populace to decide.

[iluvmargie]

Saville wasn't convicted as a criminal, but he certainly carried out criminal acts. Pity he died before he could be taken to task.

[andy-hughes]

tigger - // I don't agree with tearing down statues and never will but, maybe this is the time to change the way things are done and have a democratic vote of the local populace to decide. //

The point is, a democratic vote is the way 'things are done' - it's the sudden influx of vandalism that is the new kid on the block!

[andy-hughes]

sp - in the view of contradictions to your imaginary scenario, do you now agree that your original point is invalid as an argument?

[JJ109]

Why did they fail tiggablue? Presumably the councillors (if it was their decision) felt that more people didn't want it taken down. Therefore, the mob were presumably anti-democratic!

A lot of assumptions there that may be false but you get the gist....

[retrocop]

I understood ,possibly ill advised, that the good people of Bristol were already allowed to sign a petition calling for the removal of Edward Colston. The results,given to me on Answerbank, were 56% wanted it to remain to 44% for it to go. That is what I recognise as democracy.

[Old_Geezer]

Think of it this way... In the 1970s child molestation was illegal. It, therefore, has no comparison to a time when owning slaves was legal, accepted by societies pretty much the world over; nor with anyone who traded them at the time. To try to do so is to try to impose an irrational demand, based on imposing different standards years later, upon everyone else in present day society who has the sense to see the situation as it really is. Simply commemorating those individuals whose philanthropy benefitted the city and it's citizens. This behaviour can not be tolerated in any civilisation that wishes to survive and not turn upon itself. (Can only assume sunspots are at a maximum at present: or maybe it's a full moon.)

[sp1814]

andy-hughes

I really don’t I’m afraid. I understand the viewpoints, but I don’t agree.

I don’t agree with destroying these monuments by force, but I understand the point of view of the protesters.

[jim360]

// In the 1970s child molestation was illegal.//

Was it? I'm actually struggling to find any relevant law prior to 2003 that made child sexual abuse specifically illegal. I could be, and I hope I am, missing something obvious, but best I've found so far is the Protection of Children Act 1978, which confines itself to prohibiting indecent images.

[ynnafymmi]

@14.28.sp1814 backtracking now.He knows he has made a fool of himself.Again.

[JJ109]

I don't believe in Religion. I believe that religions have caused the death of more people in this world than anything except mosquitoes!

Will you understand me SP if I wanted to blow up every church (or mosque or temple etc) in the country? I would of course get petitions signed first to get rid of them legally, but if the petitions failed......

[sp1814]

ynnafymmi

Aww...I didn’t think I’d backtracked as I still believe my original premise - but many thanks for your contribution.

It’s always good to hear the views of others - it always helps when you clarify your own position by hearing the opposition of others.

So cheers for your input!

[sp1814]

jj109

I’m would understand it - you’ve explained yourself well, but wanting to and doing are two different things.

Like I say - I understand why, but I don’t agree with the actions.

[ynnafymmi]

Starting to flounder now,sp.

[andy-hughes]

sp - // andy-hughes

I really don’t I’m afraid. I understand the viewpoints, but I don’t agree.

I don’t agree with destroying these monuments by force, but I understand the point of view of the protesters. //

My point is that your argument is not based on the rights and wrongs of statue destruction, but the notion that Savile is a comparable example.

[archibaldy]

The fundamental problem is that statues or similar are erected in public places as a mark of admiration, honour and inspiration. No human will ever evoke all those feelings by everyone as we all have achievements and faults and some of those will be redefined as times change.

If they were never put up in the first place there wouldn't be all these problems with them. We've got the hospital I see no reason why we need the statue - unless people just fund hospitals so they get a statue a the end of it?

To address the OP, every person in Britain would want the statue of Saville removed, his faults outweigh his achievements in everyone's book - there would be no contention. Not so for everyone who has a statue, personal viewpoints place different weightings and hence we have the problem we have today - solved by never putting the things up in the first place.

[fender62]

if a vote was put to the people, should selective statues be removed
i wonder what the outcome would be, some would say..why are we even having this vote, others only selective statues, others all of them.

[weecalf]

I don’t think Churchill’s statue should have been covered up because look at the mileage there would have been out of saying look what was done to this great mans statue.By covering it up are they hinting that maybe he was not so great and his statue will be damaged ? I think Boris will be able to fine out if this was so and let the good people know why this damage is happening Is that fair enough ?