Road rules2 mins ago
So What's The Truth?
I thought of adding further comments to this question:
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but decided to add (yet) another for today's entertainment. My comments are (as usual) lengthy and too long to post in the question so they follow.
https:/
but decided to add (yet) another for today's entertainment. My comments are (as usual) lengthy and too long to post in the question so they follow.
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Who knows what the real truth is. For certain Witless and GSK-Valances charts were BS.
I guess as far as full hospitals are concerned it depends where you are. I only know 3, two of whom I understand are operating normal for time of year and one which is below and plenty of space. But then there are hundreds of hospitals in the UK.
The only other true fact is that the cases are dropping in the Ter 3 areas so that rather proves they were working. Although I have yet to see an absolute definition of what the Government think is 'working'.
Meanwhile for non-covid patients it seem it is tough luck.
I guess as far as full hospitals are concerned it depends where you are. I only know 3, two of whom I understand are operating normal for time of year and one which is below and plenty of space. But then there are hundreds of hospitals in the UK.
The only other true fact is that the cases are dropping in the Ter 3 areas so that rather proves they were working. Although I have yet to see an absolute definition of what the Government think is 'working'.
Meanwhile for non-covid patients it seem it is tough luck.
\\ (where is PP? he posted about this recently)//
wondering if he should post in response to Bobbisox' fren dying from covid
"Oh no - thats not covid - NJ says he is dying from flu and THAT is completely different !"- ( as in that is allowed ) but I decided not to
200 hospital cases Sep and 11 000 in hospital testing positive today for covid strikes me as grounds for wondering if it will be a problem
NJ says there is no covid and they are dying from flu and so does Trump - is this new ? - no
is this AB yes
no change there then
wondering if he should post in response to Bobbisox' fren dying from covid
"Oh no - thats not covid - NJ says he is dying from flu and THAT is completely different !"- ( as in that is allowed ) but I decided not to
200 hospital cases Sep and 11 000 in hospital testing positive today for covid strikes me as grounds for wondering if it will be a problem
NJ says there is no covid and they are dying from flu and so does Trump - is this new ? - no
is this AB yes
no change there then
//part of "the truth" is that treatment has changed (where is PP? he posted about this recently) As I recall, less people are being intubated as not only does it not help it may make things worse. More are being given remdesivir and/or dexamethazone and/or oxygen in less invasive forms which don't require maintained sedation and therefore don't require ITU.//
So how does that influence the number of people in hospital with Covid (whether in ICUs or not)? Those numbers are currently half the peak in April.
//I dont recall the govt ever saying that itu was overwhelmed just that on the current trajectory it would be?//
//As far as I understood it, the fear was about what will happen in a few weeks' time, based on current trends.//
I’m not arguing about the current trajectory or predictions. I’m trying to find out how the doctor in Liverpool (who suggested the service was “hanging by a thread”) and Prof Heneghan (“Everything is looking at normal levels and free bed capacity is still significant, even in high dependency units and intensive care,…”) can both be correct.
// Liverpool University Hospital has had to send patients to other hospitals.They are definitely at capacity.//
Yes but according to Prof Heneghan the NHS as a whole isn’t. Part of their job is (or should be) to seek out resources in other areas when one area is full. It’s what businesses have to do.
//I feel failed, but I understand the pressure they are all under.//
But they’re not!! As I’ve explained in the other post, bed occupancy dropped by about 17,000 (around 18%) between Jan-Mar and Apr-Jun and GPs’ surgeries are providing very little proper care (as you – and many others including me - have found out).
// then go out into the world and meet the people on the front line, the doctors the nurses, the medical and nursing support staff , you must know someone in that theatre of health.//
I do know someone – my cousin is the senior nursing director (aka “Matron”) in a large West Country hospital. Many of her wards are closed, almost all elective surgery has been cancelled – and they have very few Covid patients. My own local hospital is in a similar position.
I’m not confused by the recommendations. I’m confused by the totally different conclusions that are being drawn from the same data. The blood-curdling scenario scientists presented to Ministers last week prompted them to close the country down yet again. That scenario quite frankly was absurd, is already beginning to unravel and lacks any credibility. If the “4,000 deaths per day” was to be realistic there should already be over 1,000. And there are not.
I can only speak for my area and the area my cousin works in with any confidence (though I doubt they are in any way untypical of many others). It is quite clear that in those areas the NHS has abandoned any pretence of providing a comprehensive service and there is no justification for that.
//There are no beds empty at the hospital MrsZ works in. I can 100% state that as a copper bottom, cast iron FACT.//
Well hers must be somewhat unique, Zacs. As I explained, there were 17,000 fewer patients in hospital in Q1 20/21 than there were in Q4 19/20. This was from a combination of reduced availability (which may explain ward closures) and fewer admissions. I eagerly await the next quarter’s numbers but I doubt those beds will suddenly be filled. So unless those beds were simply thrown away they must be lying idle somewhere.
So how does that influence the number of people in hospital with Covid (whether in ICUs or not)? Those numbers are currently half the peak in April.
//I dont recall the govt ever saying that itu was overwhelmed just that on the current trajectory it would be?//
//As far as I understood it, the fear was about what will happen in a few weeks' time, based on current trends.//
I’m not arguing about the current trajectory or predictions. I’m trying to find out how the doctor in Liverpool (who suggested the service was “hanging by a thread”) and Prof Heneghan (“Everything is looking at normal levels and free bed capacity is still significant, even in high dependency units and intensive care,…”) can both be correct.
// Liverpool University Hospital has had to send patients to other hospitals.They are definitely at capacity.//
Yes but according to Prof Heneghan the NHS as a whole isn’t. Part of their job is (or should be) to seek out resources in other areas when one area is full. It’s what businesses have to do.
//I feel failed, but I understand the pressure they are all under.//
But they’re not!! As I’ve explained in the other post, bed occupancy dropped by about 17,000 (around 18%) between Jan-Mar and Apr-Jun and GPs’ surgeries are providing very little proper care (as you – and many others including me - have found out).
// then go out into the world and meet the people on the front line, the doctors the nurses, the medical and nursing support staff , you must know someone in that theatre of health.//
I do know someone – my cousin is the senior nursing director (aka “Matron”) in a large West Country hospital. Many of her wards are closed, almost all elective surgery has been cancelled – and they have very few Covid patients. My own local hospital is in a similar position.
I’m not confused by the recommendations. I’m confused by the totally different conclusions that are being drawn from the same data. The blood-curdling scenario scientists presented to Ministers last week prompted them to close the country down yet again. That scenario quite frankly was absurd, is already beginning to unravel and lacks any credibility. If the “4,000 deaths per day” was to be realistic there should already be over 1,000. And there are not.
I can only speak for my area and the area my cousin works in with any confidence (though I doubt they are in any way untypical of many others). It is quite clear that in those areas the NHS has abandoned any pretence of providing a comprehensive service and there is no justification for that.
//There are no beds empty at the hospital MrsZ works in. I can 100% state that as a copper bottom, cast iron FACT.//
Well hers must be somewhat unique, Zacs. As I explained, there were 17,000 fewer patients in hospital in Q1 20/21 than there were in Q4 19/20. This was from a combination of reduced availability (which may explain ward closures) and fewer admissions. I eagerly await the next quarter’s numbers but I doubt those beds will suddenly be filled. So unless those beds were simply thrown away they must be lying idle somewhere.
You're still avoiding the staffing levels NJ. Regarding GP surgeries, although this is not what we are on about, I still stick to what I said weeks ago, (they) are failing the public, for no good reason other than choice, and there is no excuse for them, its a disgrace. If anyone is hiding behind the sofa, its them for sure.. The government have already made it clear in the last few weeks that they should get back to seeing their patients face to face, I still don't see it happening in my area?
@15.11, It just go's to show that Matt Hancock had not got a clue what the staffing levels were like in the NHS, or just ignore the problem and continue with it as a PR stunt. When the Nightingales were being built NHS bosses estimated that the only chance of using them would be to have one nurse per six beds, and even this was a dream.
ZACS, you wrote, "Cases are rising in the hospital where Mrs Z works by a factor of 10 per day i.e. 80 Monday, 90 Tuesday, 100 wednesday......"
I know what you mean, in that the numbers are increasing by ten each day but using the phrase "factor of" normally means a "multiple of".
I'm not having a pop but I thought I would point it out before someone jumped up and down about it.
I know what you mean, in that the numbers are increasing by ten each day but using the phrase "factor of" normally means a "multiple of".
I'm not having a pop but I thought I would point it out before someone jumped up and down about it.
Yes a think porkies is not the best term here. Some hospital's are really struggling allready as my link's showed yesterdayand some are'nt fortunatetley. But are scientists and NHS generally agree that they'll after to stop other treatment's and there spare capacity will dissappear soon because your missing the fact is that corona infections is doubling every 10 to 12 days depending on who's figures your reading and corona cases in hospital are rising & following the same patten and deaths are to. The lockdown maybe to late, are firebrake showed the way forward, but hopefully it will stop are NHS being overran before December /Chrismas and other ops been posponed.
So its about planning ahead, better late than never, not about whats happening today.
On the Nightingails a heard that some are been reopened again now which might help if there staffed properly
So its about planning ahead, better late than never, not about whats happening today.
On the Nightingails a heard that some are been reopened again now which might help if there staffed properly
I won’t go into too much detail but my friends mum volunteered at a local (church) food bank a couple of years ago - she lasted a few months before she left and returned to poppy selling!
Why don’t the government issue child benefit for the first child in the form of food vouchers redeemable at food banks and then increase support for the FB’s. That would ensure each family had £21 at least that was spent on food
Why don’t the government issue child benefit for the first child in the form of food vouchers redeemable at food banks and then increase support for the FB’s. That would ensure each family had £21 at least that was spent on food
//Like I said, there aren't any more resources, NJ. I do wish you'd grasp that basic fact.//
Well there are in my local hospital. It has 25 wards and 17 of them are unoccupied. The situation is similar in my cousin's hospital in the West Country. My hospital used to run at about 85% to 90% capacity I haven't heard that all the staff from here have been shipped to areas that are struggling. In fact I don't know what they are doing.
//...the fact is that corona infections is doubling every 10 to 12 days//
Where do you get these numbers from? The last time infections doubled in twelve days was between the 2nd and 14th of October, at the beginning of the latest surge. That figure must be treated with some caution as on 4th October it was announced that a major cods-up had been made with the data. Current twelve day increases are between 10% and 30%.
Well there are in my local hospital. It has 25 wards and 17 of them are unoccupied. The situation is similar in my cousin's hospital in the West Country. My hospital used to run at about 85% to 90% capacity I haven't heard that all the staff from here have been shipped to areas that are struggling. In fact I don't know what they are doing.
//...the fact is that corona infections is doubling every 10 to 12 days//
Where do you get these numbers from? The last time infections doubled in twelve days was between the 2nd and 14th of October, at the beginning of the latest surge. That figure must be treated with some caution as on 4th October it was announced that a major cods-up had been made with the data. Current twelve day increases are between 10% and 30%.
Nightingales, would you now sail a ship into an icefield without lifeboats. No we learned from a last disaster. Knowing they are there is knowing the ship is less likely be overwhelmed.
Beds in the southwest are useless to patients in the Northwest, patient transport is hazardous and requires trained escort. With an ITU patient that can take an anaesthetist, an intensive care nurse and a paramedic crew out of their area for the journey , handover, rest and return. Makes no sense in terms of safety, staffing or economics.I
Maybe offering those services where there is local capacity to elective surgery patients willing to travel would work.
I wanted to return to nursing, no funding for the required course, no places in local universities, and too old to be a returning retiree under the recent rules. I still have skills that could be refreshed, I was an intensive care nurse, with extra qualifications in Care of the dying,and I also worked as a bed manager. I am sure I am not the only one.
Beds in the southwest are useless to patients in the Northwest, patient transport is hazardous and requires trained escort. With an ITU patient that can take an anaesthetist, an intensive care nurse and a paramedic crew out of their area for the journey , handover, rest and return. Makes no sense in terms of safety, staffing or economics.I
Maybe offering those services where there is local capacity to elective surgery patients willing to travel would work.
I wanted to return to nursing, no funding for the required course, no places in local universities, and too old to be a returning retiree under the recent rules. I still have skills that could be refreshed, I was an intensive care nurse, with extra qualifications in Care of the dying,and I also worked as a bed manager. I am sure I am not the only one.
NJ@ 10.29. ( In fact I don't know what they are doing) That's very true you don't. But I doubt nurses and doctors that work and live in you're area are prepared at a moments notice or otherwise to up stakes and be shipped off miles away leaving their families and home to stay elsewhere, failing that a long commute on top of a 12 hour + plus shift.
// "Cases are rising in the hospital where Mrs Z works by a factor of 10 per day i.e. 80 Monday, 90 Tuesday, 100 wednesday......"//
that is an additional ten per day
altho 6+4 = 10 ( we chanted this everyday when I was six ) 6 and 4 arent factors of ten
2 and 5 are ( and 1 and 10)
yikes this is AB and not connies class for 6 y olds 1958 - but it feels like it ..... ho hum
foo ! I remember when the question was who is the president of the united states, the correct answer was President Eisenhower
--- whose election slogan was " I like Ike!"
that is an additional ten per day
altho 6+4 = 10 ( we chanted this everyday when I was six ) 6 and 4 arent factors of ten
2 and 5 are ( and 1 and 10)
yikes this is AB and not connies class for 6 y olds 1958 - but it feels like it ..... ho hum
foo ! I remember when the question was who is the president of the united states, the correct answer was President Eisenhower
--- whose election slogan was " I like Ike!"
