Body & Soul9 mins ago
'Racist' Milwall Fans - Your View?
211 Answers
There has been controversy about the reaction to players 'taking the knee' at a weekend game, where Milwall fans were heard to boo the players involved.
https:/
It appears the FA are investigating the potential for action against the club for the 'racsist actions' of its fans.
Personally, I don't believe that showing your disapproval of an act of support for a social campaign - or a political organisation, depending on your viewpoint, equates to either not supporting that campain / organisation, or to actively advising your support of an opposite point of view.
Put simply, I don't believe that booing 'taking the knee' makes anyone a racist.
It's an assumption that has no basis in reason, and to me, it shows people being far too keen to look at a negative attitude to one behaviour, and ascribe it possessing a negative attitude to another, with no viable connection.
I am not a football fan, and I wouldn't ever boo anyone, or any action in public, but I do strongly dislike the pointless OTT woke-ism and self-righteousness of 'taking the knee' and I believe it has no place in our sports arenas, but if anyone were to accuse me of being a racist for expressing that view, we would be having serious words.
What are your views?
https:/
It appears the FA are investigating the potential for action against the club for the 'racsist actions' of its fans.
Personally, I don't believe that showing your disapproval of an act of support for a social campaign - or a political organisation, depending on your viewpoint, equates to either not supporting that campain / organisation, or to actively advising your support of an opposite point of view.
Put simply, I don't believe that booing 'taking the knee' makes anyone a racist.
It's an assumption that has no basis in reason, and to me, it shows people being far too keen to look at a negative attitude to one behaviour, and ascribe it possessing a negative attitude to another, with no viable connection.
I am not a football fan, and I wouldn't ever boo anyone, or any action in public, but I do strongly dislike the pointless OTT woke-ism and self-righteousness of 'taking the knee' and I believe it has no place in our sports arenas, but if anyone were to accuse me of being a racist for expressing that view, we would be having serious words.
What are your views?
Answers
'Taking the knee' has made the point, and should now stop. Just as we all enthusiastic
22:39 Mon 07th Dec 2020
ichkeria - //
Mark as Best Answer
“ Because a club's supporters has a reputation for racist attitudes, it may mean that their booing is based on that racist attitude - but to simply assume it to be so is in my view, a dangerous attitude, easily spread to other areas of thinking.”
Which is a bit like saying that just because we know a dog barks it’s dangerous to assume that the last time it made a barking sound it wasn’t actually a fart ... //
What on earth are you on about???
That comparison makes no sense whatsoever!!!
// Racist or not it was objectionable and plainly not done out of unease //
That is not the point.
I am not especially concerned with the motivation behind the booing, I am concerned with the willingness to jump to a negative conclusion based on a false premise.
The booing may have been racist in intention - but that's not proven to a level where the FA should be investigating it - that is done on an assumption, and an invalid assumption with no evidence to support it.
As I said, and it bears repeating - hostility to one position does not automatically signal and affirm support for the opposite position, and that is the assumption here, and that is wrong in my view.
Mark as Best Answer
“ Because a club's supporters has a reputation for racist attitudes, it may mean that their booing is based on that racist attitude - but to simply assume it to be so is in my view, a dangerous attitude, easily spread to other areas of thinking.”
Which is a bit like saying that just because we know a dog barks it’s dangerous to assume that the last time it made a barking sound it wasn’t actually a fart ... //
What on earth are you on about???
That comparison makes no sense whatsoever!!!
// Racist or not it was objectionable and plainly not done out of unease //
That is not the point.
I am not especially concerned with the motivation behind the booing, I am concerned with the willingness to jump to a negative conclusion based on a false premise.
The booing may have been racist in intention - but that's not proven to a level where the FA should be investigating it - that is done on an assumption, and an invalid assumption with no evidence to support it.
As I said, and it bears repeating - hostility to one position does not automatically signal and affirm support for the opposite position, and that is the assumption here, and that is wrong in my view.
Trevor - // "hostility to one position does not automatically signal and affirm support for the opposite position"
These are football "fans" it most certainly does //
Only in a society where assumptions are made on the basis of past behaviour, rather than actually finding out if this behaviour is motivated by something different.
I don't believe this society should behave like that - if it does, where do we draw the line?
That must mean the imediate end of any street deonstration of any kind anywhere, ever.
Why? Becauxe sometimes there is violence, therefore everyone who demsontrates is potentially violent, so they must not be allowed to demonstrate any more.
Making assumptions on crowd behaviour is easy - it's working out where tlo draw the line that's the tricky part.
I suggest we draw the line in instances like this, where we don't jump to lazy unfounded conclusions based on pre-conceived negative attitudes, it's not helpful.
These are football "fans" it most certainly does //
Only in a society where assumptions are made on the basis of past behaviour, rather than actually finding out if this behaviour is motivated by something different.
I don't believe this society should behave like that - if it does, where do we draw the line?
That must mean the imediate end of any street deonstration of any kind anywhere, ever.
Why? Becauxe sometimes there is violence, therefore everyone who demsontrates is potentially violent, so they must not be allowed to demonstrate any more.
Making assumptions on crowd behaviour is easy - it's working out where tlo draw the line that's the tricky part.
I suggest we draw the line in instances like this, where we don't jump to lazy unfounded conclusions based on pre-conceived negative attitudes, it's not helpful.
Ellipsis - // > The booing may have been racist in intention - but that's not proven to a level where the FA should be investigating it
What about investigating it to see if it was racist in intention? Doesn't the FA have the right, if not the obligation, to do that? //
It may well do.
What it, and individuals like Wayne Rooney, doesn;t have a right to do is reach the conclusion of the investigation first, and then look for evidence to back it up.
If the FA is investigating fairly, then it starts from a position of neuatrality - we don;t know why there was booing, we're going to try and find out and advise accordingly.
Not, as is clearly the case - we have already decided what motivtaed the booing, now we are going to look for evidence that backs up our advance decision, so clearly we won't be trying too hard to find any other avidence that proves us to have been wrong, and leaves us with egg on our collective judgemental faces.
What about investigating it to see if it was racist in intention? Doesn't the FA have the right, if not the obligation, to do that? //
It may well do.
What it, and individuals like Wayne Rooney, doesn;t have a right to do is reach the conclusion of the investigation first, and then look for evidence to back it up.
If the FA is investigating fairly, then it starts from a position of neuatrality - we don;t know why there was booing, we're going to try and find out and advise accordingly.
Not, as is clearly the case - we have already decided what motivtaed the booing, now we are going to look for evidence that backs up our advance decision, so clearly we won't be trying too hard to find any other avidence that proves us to have been wrong, and leaves us with egg on our collective judgemental faces.
A bad reputation sticks, especially when the actions are repeated year on year on year on year. Still, lets not consider that this booing might be systemic, lets assume it wasn't hostile to anything other than a political movement that they don't agree with.
As I said earlier... I'm sure they'll show their true colours (whiteness) with the roman salute and monkey chants before the season ends.
As I said earlier... I'm sure they'll show their true colours (whiteness) with the roman salute and monkey chants before the season ends.
Trevor - // Still, lets not consider that this booing might be systemic, lets assume it wasn't hostile to anything other than a political movement that they don't agree with. //
As I pointed out in my OP, I am inclined to believe that the booing is based on simply hostility to pointless self-aggrandaisment and desire to prove an enlarged social concience by adopting an absurd posturing piece of behaviour - and in that, I am in agreement with them.
As I pointed out in my OP, I am inclined to believe that the booing is based on simply hostility to pointless self-aggrandaisment and desire to prove an enlarged social concience by adopting an absurd posturing piece of behaviour - and in that, I am in agreement with them.
Well linking arms (at the next match) will convey exactly the same message of "self-aggrandaisment and desire to prove an enlarged social concience by adopting an absurd posturing piece of behaviour (your waffle not mine)" but I guess your average below average Milwall fan will not notice and assume the can-can is about to commence.
Trevor - // Well linking arms (at the next match) will convey exactly the same message of "self-aggrandaisment and desire to prove an enlarged social concience by adopting an absurd posturing piece of behaviour (your waffle not mine)" but I guess your average below average Milwall fan will not notice and assume the can-can is about to commence. //
You really are reaching now!
If you think a crowd of fans doing anything that crowds usually do equates to the posturing 'Look at me how humble and woke I am ...' nonsense of 'taking the knee', then you are looking desperate in trying to shore up your argument against my suggestion.
You really are reaching now!
If you think a crowd of fans doing anything that crowds usually do equates to the posturing 'Look at me how humble and woke I am ...' nonsense of 'taking the knee', then you are looking desperate in trying to shore up your argument against my suggestion.
// What on earth are you on about???//
o god read his answer before fooing and blowing and whining
"what he on about den?"
a racist refuses service X to an afrocaribbean ( like a taxi ride)
altho it COULD be on race
it could also be - - another cause like he already has a far
and so ascribing all behaviour on racism is - - - a non sequitur
ter daaah 0 ay thenk yew
give a dog a bad name.....from yore
Oh andie - please dont start using
what dat den? or what dat den foo?
as the cure all crushing one liner put down- there are enough on AB who do already
o god read his answer before fooing and blowing and whining
"what he on about den?"
a racist refuses service X to an afrocaribbean ( like a taxi ride)
altho it COULD be on race
it could also be - - another cause like he already has a far
and so ascribing all behaviour on racism is - - - a non sequitur
ter daaah 0 ay thenk yew
give a dog a bad name.....from yore
Oh andie - please dont start using
what dat den? or what dat den foo?
as the cure all crushing one liner put down- there are enough on AB who do already
> What [the FA] doesn't have a right to do is reach the conclusion of the investigation first, and then look for evidence to back it up.
It's like a sketch from Harry Enfield's Self-Righteous brothers. "Oi, FA, no!!! You may administer over the beautiful game as played in the beautiful country of England wot invented said beautiful game. But if you hear fans booing at players, you SHALL NOT jump to a conclusion as to what they're booing about, and then conduct an investigation to look for evidence to back up the conclusion wot you have already come to!"
The FA's response? "Thanks, we'll just get on with the investigation, shall we?"
It's like a sketch from Harry Enfield's Self-Righteous brothers. "Oi, FA, no!!! You may administer over the beautiful game as played in the beautiful country of England wot invented said beautiful game. But if you hear fans booing at players, you SHALL NOT jump to a conclusion as to what they're booing about, and then conduct an investigation to look for evidence to back up the conclusion wot you have already come to!"
The FA's response? "Thanks, we'll just get on with the investigation, shall we?"
// > What [the FA] doesn't have a right to do is reach the conclusion of the investigation first, and then look for evidence to back it up.//
I regret a theme of our times I am afraid
police do it - and regulators er regularly do it
( get a complaint and investigate and stop when they can get a charge to get up and run - actually what happened isnt a factor)
I regret a theme of our times I am afraid
police do it - and regulators er regularly do it
( get a complaint and investigate and stop when they can get a charge to get up and run - actually what happened isnt a factor)
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