News0 min ago
Just How Long Are People Going To Put Up With This?
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People who queued for two hours after driving 20 miles to get milk from a farm's vending machine have been fined for breaching lockdown rules.
“All of Wales remains under level four "stay at home" lockdown rules, with people only allowed to travel for essential reasons, which include buying food.
Welsh Government guidance on the rules say there are "no limits on how far" people can travel to shop for essential items,…”
I haven't fully digested the Welsh legislation but from the above passage it seems, once again, police are issuing fixed penalties when no law has been broken.
People who queued for two hours after driving 20 miles to get milk from a farm's vending machine have been fined for breaching lockdown rules.
“All of Wales remains under level four "stay at home" lockdown rules, with people only allowed to travel for essential reasons, which include buying food.
Welsh Government guidance on the rules say there are "no limits on how far" people can travel to shop for essential items,…”
I haven't fully digested the Welsh legislation but from the above passage it seems, once again, police are issuing fixed penalties when no law has been broken.
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Imagine a complete germaphobe wants a bottle of milk.
He can go to the nearest big supermarket and mingle with 300 other lactophiles, get in a queue, and be served and handed change from a stranger.
or
He can drive to a remote farm, use a automatic vending machine, see no people, get change from no one and go home in his car.
In terms of a good Covid avoidance strategy, the farm shop is safest for everyone.
He can go to the nearest big supermarket and mingle with 300 other lactophiles, get in a queue, and be served and handed change from a stranger.
or
He can drive to a remote farm, use a automatic vending machine, see no people, get change from no one and go home in his car.
In terms of a good Covid avoidance strategy, the farm shop is safest for everyone.
it's quite popular
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It sounds as though it ought to be comparatively risk-free, with just machines and no staff. It may be that it got crowded, and that this wasn't expected at that time of night (which is why I typically go to Sainsbury's just before closing time) but the story doesn't seem to say so.
Did these 30 people from Rhyl all come together? Perhaps that was unwise, but it doesn't sound obviously criminal unless they were all in the same bus. There aren't that many shops selling milk at that time of night
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It sounds as though it ought to be comparatively risk-free, with just machines and no staff. It may be that it got crowded, and that this wasn't expected at that time of night (which is why I typically go to Sainsbury's just before closing time) but the story doesn't seem to say so.
Did these 30 people from Rhyl all come together? Perhaps that was unwise, but it doesn't sound obviously criminal unless they were all in the same bus. There aren't that many shops selling milk at that time of night
//Covid distancing and behaviour rules were also broken.//
As I said, I’m not familiar with Welsh legislation but in England that is not an offence.
//judge, are these fines contestable? I mean you can plead not guilty right??//
They’re not fines, Tora. They are fixed penalties. If they remain unpaid the police must take the recipient to court where he can plead not guilty.
I get your argument about the “reasonable excuse”, Chris. But the National Police Chiefs’ Council made it quite clear in the case of the two Derbyshire ladies that there is no distance constraint when you leave home with a reasonable excuse (say to exercise or buy goods from outlets that are open).
I would accept that the case of the 30 people pitching up at 11pm raises some doubt as to their motives. But the farm said “Even people living nearby are facing being fined, despite the force accepting milk as "an essential item".”
//Hopefully the govt will change the wording of the regulations if it really does say theres "no limits on how far" people can travel to shop for essential items,…” .//
The law does not say there are no limits. But that isn’t the way the law works in the UK. Because it doesn't say their are limits does not mean there are some to be imposed by the police. The law has to say there are limits if limits are to be imposed. The police cannot impose arbitrary limits of their own.
//It's selfish to exercise one's freedom if that endangers others.//
But it’s not illegal.
I still don’t seem to be getting my point over here. I don’t condone many of the activities we see reported (though I do defend the two Derbyshire ladies, now thankfully cleared of any wrongdoing). I think many of the people involved are stupid, selfish and inconsiderate. But they are not breaking the law. The police are taking it on themselves to interpret the law in a way they think fit and impose Fixed Penalties on people who have not transgressed. I described a report on these matters yesterday where hundreds of people had been wrongly charged under the Covid legislation and Kirsty Brimelow, QC called it a “systematic failure resulting from police and Ministers mixing up law and guidance.” That is what’s happening here. The government is perfectly able to enact stronger legislation if it wishes. In the meantime, Covid or no Covid, the UK is still subject to the rule of law, not to the whims of individual police officers.
As I said, I’m not familiar with Welsh legislation but in England that is not an offence.
//judge, are these fines contestable? I mean you can plead not guilty right??//
They’re not fines, Tora. They are fixed penalties. If they remain unpaid the police must take the recipient to court where he can plead not guilty.
I get your argument about the “reasonable excuse”, Chris. But the National Police Chiefs’ Council made it quite clear in the case of the two Derbyshire ladies that there is no distance constraint when you leave home with a reasonable excuse (say to exercise or buy goods from outlets that are open).
I would accept that the case of the 30 people pitching up at 11pm raises some doubt as to their motives. But the farm said “Even people living nearby are facing being fined, despite the force accepting milk as "an essential item".”
//Hopefully the govt will change the wording of the regulations if it really does say theres "no limits on how far" people can travel to shop for essential items,…” .//
The law does not say there are no limits. But that isn’t the way the law works in the UK. Because it doesn't say their are limits does not mean there are some to be imposed by the police. The law has to say there are limits if limits are to be imposed. The police cannot impose arbitrary limits of their own.
//It's selfish to exercise one's freedom if that endangers others.//
But it’s not illegal.
I still don’t seem to be getting my point over here. I don’t condone many of the activities we see reported (though I do defend the two Derbyshire ladies, now thankfully cleared of any wrongdoing). I think many of the people involved are stupid, selfish and inconsiderate. But they are not breaking the law. The police are taking it on themselves to interpret the law in a way they think fit and impose Fixed Penalties on people who have not transgressed. I described a report on these matters yesterday where hundreds of people had been wrongly charged under the Covid legislation and Kirsty Brimelow, QC called it a “systematic failure resulting from police and Ministers mixing up law and guidance.” That is what’s happening here. The government is perfectly able to enact stronger legislation if it wishes. In the meantime, Covid or no Covid, the UK is still subject to the rule of law, not to the whims of individual police officers.
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