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Why Do We Tolerate These Morons?
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Just start pumping concrete in, they come out. We always seem to pussy foot about when the solution is simple and obvious.
Just start pumping concrete in, they come out. We always seem to pussy foot about when the solution is simple and obvious.
Answers
They should chuck some of those birds from Greenham Common down the tunnels. They'd frighten anyone off. shudder
10:28 Wed 27th Jan 2021
bobbinwales - // If this resistance to change had been around 150 years ago we'd never of got round to building the London Undeground or last century we'd still be debating whether to build the Severn Bridge or M1/M25 or Channel tunnel (ok maybe a bad example for some!) or the major airports //
I think they are all bad examples.
Every single one of the infrastructure projects you mentioned had a clear and obvious goal in mind, and fulfilled it.
The notion of HS2 is built on cultural and business adaptations that show not one single sign of being fulfilled, except in the fervid imaginations of London-based think-tankers.
I think they are all bad examples.
Every single one of the infrastructure projects you mentioned had a clear and obvious goal in mind, and fulfilled it.
The notion of HS2 is built on cultural and business adaptations that show not one single sign of being fulfilled, except in the fervid imaginations of London-based think-tankers.
AH: "As I say, the notion of HS2 opening the 'Northern Powerhouse' is a pointless myth, and a devastatingly destructive money-hoovering white elephant of a myth as well. " - only you mentioned "northern powerhouse", the purpose is to add capacity to take the pressure off current lines, nothing more.
//That is a fundamental divide that is not going to altered by building a rail line between the two.//
There's already one, Andy (or two, in fact). And they are both (in normal times) packed to capacity much of the time - in both directions. So there is a huge demand for transport between North and South.
I don't travel quite so much now but I used to travel to the North once or twice a month, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Coventry, Birmingham, Preston to name but a few destinations. All the trains I used were packed. Rail patronage has increased enormously over the past few years and I imagine the situation is still very much the same (Covid excepted, of course).
There is a cultural divide between north and south. Being a southerner I believe parts of the North are far too nice to be left exclusively to Northerners. Places like Whitby, for example, would be better off on the south coast, somewhere in the Littlehampton direction, say. :-)
There's already one, Andy (or two, in fact). And they are both (in normal times) packed to capacity much of the time - in both directions. So there is a huge demand for transport between North and South.
I don't travel quite so much now but I used to travel to the North once or twice a month, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Coventry, Birmingham, Preston to name but a few destinations. All the trains I used were packed. Rail patronage has increased enormously over the past few years and I imagine the situation is still very much the same (Covid excepted, of course).
There is a cultural divide between north and south. Being a southerner I believe parts of the North are far too nice to be left exclusively to Northerners. Places like Whitby, for example, would be better off on the south coast, somewhere in the Littlehampton direction, say. :-)
Yes NJ, & I'm sure that post covid / post Brexit / post CO2 emission regulations, travel by public transport within the UK will be on the increase. The greatest tragedy in my life time in this sector was the closure of so many branch lines, the whole rail sector needs a good looking at, HS2 is necessary & only a part of that.
Rail travel is the future.
Rail travel is the future.
bobinwales - // //I think they are all bad examples.//
On the contray , mine are good examples. Your saying they were needed but you have the benifit of hindsight. //
Obviously I have the benefit of hindsight, but even at the time, the future advantages of the projects you offered as examples were absolutely clear for anyone to see.
The imagined benefits from HS2 - and let's consider the scale of disruption and the sheer costs, never mind the extended timescale, and it's far harder to see that the end is going to justify the means.
Anyone who knows about projects like this knows full well that the projected cost is likely to exceed itself by several hundred per cent.
The project overseers will be blamed, but I believe this is actually not their fault, and completely unavoidable.
That is because, it is only when a major project like this gets under way, that the snags which cannot be predicted are found, as they can only be by actually commencing the project, and finding them one by one and fixing them, with attendent rises in budget.
On this scale, that increase, unavoidable as it is, represents a massive hike in budgets, which frankly makes the vilbility and worth of the end produect even more tenuous than it was when the idea was first raised.
On the contray , mine are good examples. Your saying they were needed but you have the benifit of hindsight. //
Obviously I have the benefit of hindsight, but even at the time, the future advantages of the projects you offered as examples were absolutely clear for anyone to see.
The imagined benefits from HS2 - and let's consider the scale of disruption and the sheer costs, never mind the extended timescale, and it's far harder to see that the end is going to justify the means.
Anyone who knows about projects like this knows full well that the projected cost is likely to exceed itself by several hundred per cent.
The project overseers will be blamed, but I believe this is actually not their fault, and completely unavoidable.
That is because, it is only when a major project like this gets under way, that the snags which cannot be predicted are found, as they can only be by actually commencing the project, and finding them one by one and fixing them, with attendent rises in budget.
On this scale, that increase, unavoidable as it is, represents a massive hike in budgets, which frankly makes the vilbility and worth of the end produect even more tenuous than it was when the idea was first raised.
I'm not "suggesting" nj. The UK looked to see if we could get out of building it, and by the time we Brexited, it was too late. It may not have been before that. I don't honestly know if it was legal, financial or whatever, but at that point, we had to continue.
It isn't important really... I was just surprised at ttt approving of us being forced into something by Europe, which is more to their benefit than ours, that's all.
It isn't important really... I was just surprised at ttt approving of us being forced into something by Europe, which is more to their benefit than ours, that's all.
//I was just surprised at ttt approving of us being forced into something by Europe, which is more to their benefit than ours, that's all.//
Can you explain, then pixie:
1. How we were forced into building HS2 by "Europe" (by which I assume you mean the EU)?
2. How HS2 will be of far more benefit to Europe than to the UK?
With (1) I think I may have heard about it if it was true as I tend to take an interest both in railways and the EU's influence over UK affairs. If I had I would be the first to denounce it (regardless of whether I thought HS2 was good or bad). But (2) really has me struggling. I cannot see how a railway line from London to the North of England will benefit people in Europe more than it will those here. Are there huge numbers of people wanting to travel from (say) Warsaw to Manchester who are finding it difficult?
Can you explain, then pixie:
1. How we were forced into building HS2 by "Europe" (by which I assume you mean the EU)?
2. How HS2 will be of far more benefit to Europe than to the UK?
With (1) I think I may have heard about it if it was true as I tend to take an interest both in railways and the EU's influence over UK affairs. If I had I would be the first to denounce it (regardless of whether I thought HS2 was good or bad). But (2) really has me struggling. I cannot see how a railway line from London to the North of England will benefit people in Europe more than it will those here. Are there huge numbers of people wanting to travel from (say) Warsaw to Manchester who are finding it difficult?
NJ, more for goods, I believe. I'm sure you know as well as I do, that other than the sheer destruction... the history and politics of rail networks... are not something I have even the most passing interest in. So I have no research, links etc. I just know a couple of people involved in it. One especially,exceptionally aware and intelligent... and I believe him. I probably should have taken more notes. How about the horseshoe shaped part around Ireland next? Is that what you've heard?
// As I say, the notion of HS2 opening the 'Northern Powerhouse' is a pointless myth, and a devastatingly destructive money-hoovering white elephant of a myth as well. //
the notion of HS2 feeding a presumed "Northern Powerhouse" is something the government hung on the project, but it isn't the raison d'etre of the scheme. the simple reason is that the West Coast route is full.
as an example. currently due to COVID, Avanti has cut the inter city service from Euston from 9 services an hour to 4, and West Midland Trains has reduced the commuter services from 10 services an hour to 5. Network Rail has allowed the vacant train paths to be occupied by more freight trains. On Tuesday a landslip near Rugby closed one of the 4 lines. Passenger trains are diverting via Northampton and the extra distance and slower speeds should add ten minutes to the journey time. In fact journeys are being increased by 30-40 minutes, due to the sheer amount of congestion at Northampton, and passenger trains having to pace the freight trains (60mph). The line is full, whichever way you look at it.
Until COVID ends we won't know what the "new normal" is. but if trains remain 50% of what they were in March last year, the west coast line will still be full. The line has been upgraded twice. the most recent upgrade should have future proofed the route until beyond 2025, but that upgrade's extra capacity was used up 2 years ago. A further upgrade would be difficult, as expensive as HS2 and extremely disruptive to the existing services for up to ten years, maybe more. (Bertie the bus from London to Glasgow anyone?) the practical solution is new build and if you're going to do that, build it as best as you can. the inter city services transfer over, leaving the existing line for freight and residential services.
the notion of HS2 feeding a presumed "Northern Powerhouse" is something the government hung on the project, but it isn't the raison d'etre of the scheme. the simple reason is that the West Coast route is full.
as an example. currently due to COVID, Avanti has cut the inter city service from Euston from 9 services an hour to 4, and West Midland Trains has reduced the commuter services from 10 services an hour to 5. Network Rail has allowed the vacant train paths to be occupied by more freight trains. On Tuesday a landslip near Rugby closed one of the 4 lines. Passenger trains are diverting via Northampton and the extra distance and slower speeds should add ten minutes to the journey time. In fact journeys are being increased by 30-40 minutes, due to the sheer amount of congestion at Northampton, and passenger trains having to pace the freight trains (60mph). The line is full, whichever way you look at it.
Until COVID ends we won't know what the "new normal" is. but if trains remain 50% of what they were in March last year, the west coast line will still be full. The line has been upgraded twice. the most recent upgrade should have future proofed the route until beyond 2025, but that upgrade's extra capacity was used up 2 years ago. A further upgrade would be difficult, as expensive as HS2 and extremely disruptive to the existing services for up to ten years, maybe more. (Bertie the bus from London to Glasgow anyone?) the practical solution is new build and if you're going to do that, build it as best as you can. the inter city services transfer over, leaving the existing line for freight and residential services.
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