ChatterBank1 min ago
More Unlawful Action?
When will the police appreciate (and stick to) the extent of their powers?:
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Police were left "outnumbered" and "hugely frustrated" when hundreds of people gathered to sledge in snow.
Large crowds congregated to frolic on Newcastle's Town Moor and Flatts Lane Country Park in Middlesbrough on Wednesday and Thursday.
Covid regulations allow police to issue fines for organised gatherings but the rules do not apply for crowds consisting of individual households.
Cleveland Police said it was "taking up a lot of resources".
"You can see we're outnumbered," said PC Ritchie Robinson.
"If they're not going to engage with us and we can't explain and reason with them in an amicable manner we're going to have to start taking names and addresses and issuing fines."
It seems to be getting worse, not better.
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Police were left "outnumbered" and "hugely frustrated" when hundreds of people gathered to sledge in snow.
Large crowds congregated to frolic on Newcastle's Town Moor and Flatts Lane Country Park in Middlesbrough on Wednesday and Thursday.
Covid regulations allow police to issue fines for organised gatherings but the rules do not apply for crowds consisting of individual households.
Cleveland Police said it was "taking up a lot of resources".
"You can see we're outnumbered," said PC Ritchie Robinson.
"If they're not going to engage with us and we can't explain and reason with them in an amicable manner we're going to have to start taking names and addresses and issuing fines."
It seems to be getting worse, not better.
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Plod was OK here though. Told 2 kids to "go home" and play. If I say things like that the luvvies call me names.
""A father and two young sons say they were sent home by police while making a snowman in the park. Tim Greany and his boys Bo, 6, and Wren, 8, were taking photographs of their snowman when they were told to leave. The family say there were ‘upset and annoyed’ when the officer told them to play in their own garden, but their London flat does not have one.""
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""A father and two young sons say they were sent home by police while making a snowman in the park. Tim Greany and his boys Bo, 6, and Wren, 8, were taking photographs of their snowman when they were told to leave. The family say there were ‘upset and annoyed’ when the officer told them to play in their own garden, but their London flat does not have one.""
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I'm puzzled by this if, as it seemed to be, there were families taking their daily exercise (including fun for the kids) by building snowmen and having snowball fights. That is all within the guidance, surely? If others join in for a snowball fight - well - you can't really have one at a distance of 2 metres, you have to be further apart. I don't see the problem and I think that the police were out of order t.b.h..
//The problem is that the police do not always know what the law is.//
Very true, BM. I often answer motoring legal questions both here and elsewhere. Whenever I read "..a police officer told me..." I always respond by warning never, ever, ask for or accept legal advice from a serving police officer. Sometimes they're right but more often than not they're wrong. I'll definitely extend that warning to questions about Covid legislation.
Very true, BM. I often answer motoring legal questions both here and elsewhere. Whenever I read "..a police officer told me..." I always respond by warning never, ever, ask for or accept legal advice from a serving police officer. Sometimes they're right but more often than not they're wrong. I'll definitely extend that warning to questions about Covid legislation.
There would appear to be TWO separate issues here:
Firstly, the Regulations state: "A gathering takes place when two or more persons are present together in the same place in order—
(a)to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or
(b)to undertake any other activity with each other"
My understanding of that is that it's perfectly lawful (as far as the rules on 'gatherings' are concerned) for lots of families (each from the same households) to be be carrying out individual family activities in a park but unlawful if they all engage in a mass snowball fight.
However the reason for leaving one's home in the first place also needs to be considered. The Regulations are clear that 'exercise' is permitted but (although there's no specific reference to it) 'recreation' alone is apparently unlawful.
So, for example, I can walk around our local lake for the benefit of my health, while enjoying watching the birdlife as I do so. However if I visit the lake solely to watch the birdlife (without taking any exercise), I'll be breaking the law through leaving my home 'without reasonable excuse'.
Activities such as golf seem to have been classed solely as 'recreation' (rather than as 'exercise') by the Regulations, as all golf courses have been forced to close and people who have continued to find ways to play have been fined for doing so.
So the question which needs to be asked is as to whether sledging is (lawful) 'exercise or (unlawful) 'recreation'. You can legally leave your home to engage in the former but not the latter.
Firstly, the Regulations state: "A gathering takes place when two or more persons are present together in the same place in order—
(a)to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or
(b)to undertake any other activity with each other"
My understanding of that is that it's perfectly lawful (as far as the rules on 'gatherings' are concerned) for lots of families (each from the same households) to be be carrying out individual family activities in a park but unlawful if they all engage in a mass snowball fight.
However the reason for leaving one's home in the first place also needs to be considered. The Regulations are clear that 'exercise' is permitted but (although there's no specific reference to it) 'recreation' alone is apparently unlawful.
So, for example, I can walk around our local lake for the benefit of my health, while enjoying watching the birdlife as I do so. However if I visit the lake solely to watch the birdlife (without taking any exercise), I'll be breaking the law through leaving my home 'without reasonable excuse'.
Activities such as golf seem to have been classed solely as 'recreation' (rather than as 'exercise') by the Regulations, as all golf courses have been forced to close and people who have continued to find ways to play have been fined for doing so.
So the question which needs to be asked is as to whether sledging is (lawful) 'exercise or (unlawful) 'recreation'. You can legally leave your home to engage in the former but not the latter.
You can leave home for recreation, Chris. Para 2 (2) (d) of the regulations (permitted reasons for leaving home):
(d) to visit a public outdoor place for the purposes of open air recreation—
(i) alone,
(ii) with—
(aa) one or more members of their household, their linked household, or
(bb) where exercise is being taken as part of providing informal childcare
for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked
childcare household,....etc.
This is why the prevention of golf presents me with a problem. Firstly, there seems no justification, in view of the above, to close golf courses. But given that they are closed, there is no reason why two people cannot take a couple of clubs and balls and knock them around in an open space. My local golf course is an open space. It has a number of public footpaths crossing it and is accessible 24/7. It cannot be completely closed to the public. But leaving aside the intricacies of whether I could use a place that is ostensibly "closed" there is nothing to prevent me using another public open space to pursue my recreation if that involves knocking a golf ball about.
So it is with sledging. It is hardly anybody's fault if a number of families simultaneously pitch up on Hampstead Heath to enjoy themselves in the snow. None of them individually is breaking the law so quite how the police will begin "taking names and addresses and issuing fines" is a mystery.
There was a report yesterday of two children being sent home for playing together in a park. They were told they should stay in their own gardens to play in the snow (they both lived in flats). Parents have been told, when supervising their children playing in the local park that the "must not socialise." So they can't speak to each other whilst their children are playing? Just what is happening here?
(d) to visit a public outdoor place for the purposes of open air recreation—
(i) alone,
(ii) with—
(aa) one or more members of their household, their linked household, or
(bb) where exercise is being taken as part of providing informal childcare
for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked
childcare household,....etc.
This is why the prevention of golf presents me with a problem. Firstly, there seems no justification, in view of the above, to close golf courses. But given that they are closed, there is no reason why two people cannot take a couple of clubs and balls and knock them around in an open space. My local golf course is an open space. It has a number of public footpaths crossing it and is accessible 24/7. It cannot be completely closed to the public. But leaving aside the intricacies of whether I could use a place that is ostensibly "closed" there is nothing to prevent me using another public open space to pursue my recreation if that involves knocking a golf ball about.
So it is with sledging. It is hardly anybody's fault if a number of families simultaneously pitch up on Hampstead Heath to enjoy themselves in the snow. None of them individually is breaking the law so quite how the police will begin "taking names and addresses and issuing fines" is a mystery.
There was a report yesterday of two children being sent home for playing together in a park. They were told they should stay in their own gardens to play in the snow (they both lived in flats). Parents have been told, when supervising their children playing in the local park that the "must not socialise." So they can't speak to each other whilst their children are playing? Just what is happening here?
This has gone on for a year now. Excuses that the Police don’t know the law will not wash anymore. The should know the law and they should obey them.
Half of Police Officers should be furloughed and be at home themselves. They have nothing to do. Tens of millions of people are staying at home, crime across the board is down, pubs, football matches banned. They have nothing to police, and few crimes to investigate.
Going to work when there is nothing to gain is just increasing covid’s chance of spreading.
Half of Police Officers should be furloughed and be at home themselves. They have nothing to do. Tens of millions of people are staying at home, crime across the board is down, pubs, football matches banned. They have nothing to police, and few crimes to investigate.
Going to work when there is nothing to gain is just increasing covid’s chance of spreading.
//British Transport Police numbers exactly the same regardless. //
that's because they still have work to do. it's true some routes have only a skeleton passenger service but most are running between 60-80%; the remaining capacity has also been used to run more freight trains. the network is still operating, and its fewer users are still making work for the police.
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not just fatalities, but trespass incidents, near misses and vandalism (usually caused by abortive attempts of theft).
that's because they still have work to do. it's true some routes have only a skeleton passenger service but most are running between 60-80%; the remaining capacity has also been used to run more freight trains. the network is still operating, and its fewer users are still making work for the police.
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not just fatalities, but trespass incidents, near misses and vandalism (usually caused by abortive attempts of theft).
//NJ, Don't blame the police, blame the people who won't abide by the rules.//
But they are abiding by the rules, Danny. That's my whole point. In the report I cited there are these two paragraphs:
"Covid regulations allow police to issue fines for organised gatherings but the rules do not apply for crowds consisting of individual households."
and:
"If they're not going to engage with us and we can't explain and reason with them in an amicable manner we're going to have to start taking names and addresses and issuing fines."
What for? For not "engaging" with the police?
Yet again in today's press there is a story of two sisters who were walking home from a market where they'd been to buy food. A call came on one of their mobile phones so they stopped whilst she took it. Two police officers approached and patronisingly asked them "don't you know there's a pandemic on?" They were issued with £200 FPNs. The police cancelled them after being approached by a newspaper but once again, members of the public going about their lawful business are being threated with criminal sanctions.
In the instances I have cited it is the police who are not abiding by the rules (aka "the law") and I really worry when people seem to think it is quite acceptable because "there's a pandemic on".
But they are abiding by the rules, Danny. That's my whole point. In the report I cited there are these two paragraphs:
"Covid regulations allow police to issue fines for organised gatherings but the rules do not apply for crowds consisting of individual households."
and:
"If they're not going to engage with us and we can't explain and reason with them in an amicable manner we're going to have to start taking names and addresses and issuing fines."
What for? For not "engaging" with the police?
Yet again in today's press there is a story of two sisters who were walking home from a market where they'd been to buy food. A call came on one of their mobile phones so they stopped whilst she took it. Two police officers approached and patronisingly asked them "don't you know there's a pandemic on?" They were issued with £200 FPNs. The police cancelled them after being approached by a newspaper but once again, members of the public going about their lawful business are being threated with criminal sanctions.
In the instances I have cited it is the police who are not abiding by the rules (aka "the law") and I really worry when people seem to think it is quite acceptable because "there's a pandemic on".
