Azes 2740: Can’t Work Out The Code...
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Who Says Crime Doesn't Pay?
117 Answers
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...why don't they wait for the outcome of the "trial"?
...why don't they wait for the outcome of the "trial"?
Answers
That's got to be a joke right? It was terrible way the man died, but I'm a bit tired about it turning into a race issue; the only person in the world who knows whether it was a race issue is Chauvin, and he's hardly likely to admit it. Another view, of course, is that Chauvin was restraining a known violent criminal. The thing that irritates the bejesus the most out of...
20:37 Fri 12th Mar 2021
Resisting arrest should obviously not be a death penalty offence -- what happens, for example, if the arrest is wrongful (see, for example, the Breonna Taylor case)? And it doesn't even need to be wrongful.
The simple fact is that: whether or not Floyd deserved arrest, and whether or not the force used was proportionate up until he was on the ground, all of this is irrelevant when it comes to what happened afterwards. A knee on the neck that chokes the arrested person out until he dies is manifestly inappropriate and indeed represents a failure of justice. Never mind the fact that the circumstances in fact suggest that Chauvin had no idea what was going on, and just jumped in without thought and without and regard for the safety and well-being of his captive. To the extent that led to Floyd's death, Chauvin is civilly and morally culpable; whether there is also a criminal case to answer is a matter for the impending trial.
The simple fact is that: whether or not Floyd deserved arrest, and whether or not the force used was proportionate up until he was on the ground, all of this is irrelevant when it comes to what happened afterwards. A knee on the neck that chokes the arrested person out until he dies is manifestly inappropriate and indeed represents a failure of justice. Never mind the fact that the circumstances in fact suggest that Chauvin had no idea what was going on, and just jumped in without thought and without and regard for the safety and well-being of his captive. To the extent that led to Floyd's death, Chauvin is civilly and morally culpable; whether there is also a criminal case to answer is a matter for the impending trial.
//M.Markle has issued a slur without attribution & possibly foundation, which is gaining ground,..//
Exactly what I’ve been saying since this ugly matter reared its head. The accusation has been levelled by the Duchess without any detail of when and where it was made and who her racist tormentor is. It simply needs to be consigned whence it came – a trashy US chat show, where they seem to revel in such things.
Then how would you explain Her (and Harry’s) drop in popularity?
Well the two are not mutually exclusive, Zacs. There are many people in the UK who believe that the Sussexes have behave appallingly and this latest episodes just adds to their poor form. So their popularity will decline. On the other hand there are many people elsewhere (including the President of the USA) and some here is seem to believe that because something is said on the Oprah Winfrey show it must be true. Hence the accusation gains ground.
I’m in the Piers Morgan group of Markle deniers. Some of the things she has said have been found to be at best grossly exaggerated or misrepresented and at worst blatantly untrue. So until I’m served with anything other than vague mumblings on a chat show, I’ll choose not to believe them.
//He was still an innocent man at the time of his death.//
Strange. You said this just last night on another thread, Andy:
“Not guilty means that the prosecution failed to convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt. It does not mean the accused is innocent, just not guilty, and they are manifestly not the same thing.”
Indeed they are not. We’ve had this philosophical debate before but as soon as you commit an offence you are guilty of it. Doesn’t matter whether or not you are arrested, charged or convicted. If you commit the offence you are guilty. As mentioned, nobody seems to have any hang-ups when declaring Jimmy Saville guilty as never charged. On the balance of probabilities I would say that Mr Floyd did not die an innocent man.
Exactly what I’ve been saying since this ugly matter reared its head. The accusation has been levelled by the Duchess without any detail of when and where it was made and who her racist tormentor is. It simply needs to be consigned whence it came – a trashy US chat show, where they seem to revel in such things.
Then how would you explain Her (and Harry’s) drop in popularity?
Well the two are not mutually exclusive, Zacs. There are many people in the UK who believe that the Sussexes have behave appallingly and this latest episodes just adds to their poor form. So their popularity will decline. On the other hand there are many people elsewhere (including the President of the USA) and some here is seem to believe that because something is said on the Oprah Winfrey show it must be true. Hence the accusation gains ground.
I’m in the Piers Morgan group of Markle deniers. Some of the things she has said have been found to be at best grossly exaggerated or misrepresented and at worst blatantly untrue. So until I’m served with anything other than vague mumblings on a chat show, I’ll choose not to believe them.
//He was still an innocent man at the time of his death.//
Strange. You said this just last night on another thread, Andy:
“Not guilty means that the prosecution failed to convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt. It does not mean the accused is innocent, just not guilty, and they are manifestly not the same thing.”
Indeed they are not. We’ve had this philosophical debate before but as soon as you commit an offence you are guilty of it. Doesn’t matter whether or not you are arrested, charged or convicted. If you commit the offence you are guilty. As mentioned, nobody seems to have any hang-ups when declaring Jimmy Saville guilty as never charged. On the balance of probabilities I would say that Mr Floyd did not die an innocent man.
New Judge - // We’ve had this philosophical debate before but as soon as you commit an offence you are guilty of it. Doesn’t matter whether or not you are arrested, charged or convicted. If you commit the offence you are guilty. //
In a strict sense, what you say is of course true, but you of all people know that society demands due process, a proper defence, a chance for the evidence to be presented and considered, and a verdict reached.
// As mentioned, nobody seems to have any hang-ups when declaring Jimmy Saville guilty as never charged. On the balance of probabilities. //
I for one have serious 'hang ups' about society's willingness to condemn the late Mr Saville without a proper trial, evidence, and a chance to defend himself as society decrees he is entitled to do.
// I would say that Mr Floyd did not die an innocent man. //
You and I both know that intellectually that may be so, but legally, he did die an innocent man - and I think it is important to distinguish perspective you are offering, since they differ fundamentally.
In a strict sense, what you say is of course true, but you of all people know that society demands due process, a proper defence, a chance for the evidence to be presented and considered, and a verdict reached.
// As mentioned, nobody seems to have any hang-ups when declaring Jimmy Saville guilty as never charged. On the balance of probabilities. //
I for one have serious 'hang ups' about society's willingness to condemn the late Mr Saville without a proper trial, evidence, and a chance to defend himself as society decrees he is entitled to do.
// I would say that Mr Floyd did not die an innocent man. //
You and I both know that intellectually that may be so, but legally, he did die an innocent man - and I think it is important to distinguish perspective you are offering, since they differ fundamentally.
Surely whether Floyd was guilty or not is irrelevant in this case? The crux of the matter was that he was killed while being arrested, seemingly due to the actions of an overzealous police officer. That's what has to be decided, and the fact a compensation figure has already been agreed with his family, the powers that be agree that it was unlawful.
Mozz - // Surely whether Floyd was guilty or not is irrelevant in this case? //
The point that some posters seem wilfully determined to ignore, is that Mr Floyd was, and indeed is, innocent by definition, since at the time of his death, he was not charged, tried or convicted of the offence for which he was arrested.
The point that some posters seem wilfully determined to ignore, is that Mr Floyd was, and indeed is, innocent by definition, since at the time of his death, he was not charged, tried or convicted of the offence for which he was arrested.
I quite understand people suggesting that FG was a violent thug and no real loss to the world. But that is never going to excuse an illegal death sentence.
People seem to ignore that there were two violent thugs in this situation and one went further than the other. Even if you aren't worried about George Floyd, is Chauvin really the kind of person you want in the police? It always seems to turn into blatant victim blaming, while the cop gets pretty much ignored. The OP says that all the police officers present have a "poor track record" and there were dozens of complaints about Chauvin himself. He is clearly no angel either- and I hope he gets whatever sentence he deserves.
People seem to ignore that there were two violent thugs in this situation and one went further than the other. Even if you aren't worried about George Floyd, is Chauvin really the kind of person you want in the police? It always seems to turn into blatant victim blaming, while the cop gets pretty much ignored. The OP says that all the police officers present have a "poor track record" and there were dozens of complaints about Chauvin himself. He is clearly no angel either- and I hope he gets whatever sentence he deserves.
I’ve never quite understood why people take umbrage on an anonymous, pretty irrelevant in the scheme of things, Internet forum.
I often think people are being cocks, and I have no doubt people think I’m a cock - really doesn’t matter to me so I’m surprised it matters to anybody.
I think, although could be wrong, that the only times I get slightly annoyed (and it is only slightly) is when Gulliver posts complete cobblers with boring and inevitable regularity, but that’s mainly because it’s generally a non-sequitur and pretty much always is about Boris Johnson. He did it on this thread, even though BJ has no relevance on this thread.
I often think people are being cocks, and I have no doubt people think I’m a cock - really doesn’t matter to me so I’m surprised it matters to anybody.
I think, although could be wrong, that the only times I get slightly annoyed (and it is only slightly) is when Gulliver posts complete cobblers with boring and inevitable regularity, but that’s mainly because it’s generally a non-sequitur and pretty much always is about Boris Johnson. He did it on this thread, even though BJ has no relevance on this thread.
Roy... if he had been convicted and sentenced to death, he would have died a "guilty" man. He wasn't.
Again, why are people so concentrated on the victim? Doesn't it bother anyone that a police officer has literally killed a person, while supposedly arresting them. How incompetent is that, for your paid, professional job? Not im danger or self-defence, but knowing there are lots of complaints about him and having the arrogance and stupidity to escalate to this.
Again, why are people so concentrated on the victim? Doesn't it bother anyone that a police officer has literally killed a person, while supposedly arresting them. How incompetent is that, for your paid, professional job? Not im danger or self-defence, but knowing there are lots of complaints about him and having the arrogance and stupidity to escalate to this.
pixie374
Roy... if he had been convicted and sentenced to death, he would have died a "guilty" man. He wasn't.
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That doesn't explain it it, Pixie.
If I shot someone dead on the street and was then killed by the police would I have died an innocent man because I hadn't been convicted and sentenced to death,?
That's the logic being used.
Hence me asking about the nuances of dying an innocent man and dying a guilty man. (I think the whole argument over it is stupid)
I'm not defending the copper because it is obvious if FG hadn't crossed Chauvin's path that day he would not have died. I also don't care if he never sees the outside of a prison again.
Roy... if he had been convicted and sentenced to death, he would have died a "guilty" man. He wasn't.
________________________
That doesn't explain it it, Pixie.
If I shot someone dead on the street and was then killed by the police would I have died an innocent man because I hadn't been convicted and sentenced to death,?
That's the logic being used.
Hence me asking about the nuances of dying an innocent man and dying a guilty man. (I think the whole argument over it is stupid)
I'm not defending the copper because it is obvious if FG hadn't crossed Chauvin's path that day he would not have died. I also don't care if he never sees the outside of a prison again.
Legally, yes, not guilty. Morally- it depends if the crime they are being arrested for is worth dying for. And also, whether it is the place of the arresting officer to decide that.
Nobody is innocent, but he didn't have a chance to be found guilty of that particular crime. The others he had paid for.
It's going to be difficult if we start ignoring laws and let police decide how worthwhile someone is there and then. It obviously goes further than just this case. I don't see the cop being any more moral or better behaved than FG was- and more scarily, he was actually given power and authority over other people.
Two wrongs...
Nobody is innocent, but he didn't have a chance to be found guilty of that particular crime. The others he had paid for.
It's going to be difficult if we start ignoring laws and let police decide how worthwhile someone is there and then. It obviously goes further than just this case. I don't see the cop being any more moral or better behaved than FG was- and more scarily, he was actually given power and authority over other people.
Two wrongs...
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