At Last … Long Range Rockets For Ukraine

[ichkeria]

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/26/politics/us-long-range-rockets-ukraine-mlrs/index.html

Can’t come soon enough really.

A “game changer”?

I’m not so sure. But it will certainly change something

[Zacs-Master]

Exactly. And how do you think Mad Vlad will react to said collateral damage?

[ichkeria]

You want me to say:
“He’ll nuke everyone”

And I say: rubbish
Do you think he gives a *** about dead Russians

[ichkeria]

Of course what may happen is that as the war hopefully turns, and Ukraine goes on the offensive more, if the occupied territories are annexed to Russia proper, he’ll use human shields and claim that Russian territory is being attacked and then he’ll explicitly threaten nuclear strikes. Trying to split the west with fear and moral blackmail. But at the risk of sounding like a cracked record: read General SVR

[ichkeria]

There are actually now reports that Russian troops have even been raping Russian women in transit camps in Belgorod.
A new meaning to the term “friendly fire”

[Zacs-Master]

Yes, I was going to bring up the use of human shields. Cue Russian forces parking up next to hospitals and schools.

But doesn’t this contradict your assertion that Putin doesn’t care about dead Russians, even if he only cares that their deaths can be used as propaganda?

[Khandro]

ichi, Do you mean by ' occupied territories ' Crimea too?

[ichkeria]

“But doesn’t this contradict your assertion that Putin doesn’t care about dead Russians, even if he only cares that their deaths can be used as propaganda?”

Indeed: only for propaganda purposes of course. They would of course in this instance be Ukrainians to most people but no matter
Yes occupied territories include Crimea obviously

[Zacs-Master]

Well, I sincerely hope the missiles aid Russia’s abandoning their reckless invasion, Ich.

[Khandro]

ichi, In the days before the illegal invasion, when I was more supportive of the Russian stance, we crossed swords frequently over Russia's claim the Crimean peninsular, I don't want open that can of worms again, but there is a strong historical case for it being Russian territory which goes back long before the commencement of the USSR.

My view is that the Ukrainians should try to restore the status quo before the invasion & no more. Reclaiming Mariupol & the coast is alone is going to be a major task, & he still would have that bridge connection.

[ichkeria]

The invasion started in 2014 Khandro.
I think as far as possible for the good of the civilised world Russia needs to be driven back as far as possible.
Crimea is an issue where I agree there might be room for compromise.

I can recommend a documentary aired in Sky I think about Putin and his obsession with Ukraine.
I’ll post details when I have time

[Zacs-Master]

‘ there is a strong historical case for it being Russian territory which goes back long before the commencement of the USSR. ‘

Ah well, maybe the Nordic countries should reclaim Britain then, or we should reclaim parts of northern France, or India, or………
You get the idea.

[Khandro]

//You get the idea.//
No I don't.

[Zacs-Master]

Oh dear.

[ichkeria]

Let’s not revisit that as khandro says.
We aren’t going to agree but it’s not wholly relevant just now

[ichkeria]

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/vladimir-putins-obsession-why-russias-leader-is-so-fixated-on-taking-ukraine-12620455

[Old_Geezer]

The idea is that just because a nation controlled areas in the past doesn't mean they can claim to have a case for them now. Sauce for the goose means that it's for the gander too. (Which is no bad idea as Britain held quite an area at one time.)

[jno]

well, it worked for Israel: God gave it to the Israelites, telling them to kill any Canaanites already living there, and after millennia of vicissitudes, it's been handed back to them (with regrettable consequences for any Palestinians already living there).

I wonder how long title to a piece of land lasts. Is Britain still owned by the people from out Belgium way who first walked here?

[ichkeria]

Of course the parallel with Israel exists only really in the issue of the Crimean Tartars (who have a far greater claim to the peninsula than Russia or Ukraine) exiled by Stalin, but returned gradually during the period of Crimea's autonomous status within the Ukrainian starte but since once again sadly persecuted.
One can argue until the cows come home about historical rights, but those arguments overlook the illegal manner of Crimea's annexation, involving covert military occupation, intimidation, armed commandeering of the parliament in Simferopol, and a faked referendum.
The reason I say it's largely irrelevant at the moment though is that now a war has been started by Russia, all bets are off as to what may happen on the ground. If Ukraine retakes neighbouring Kherson (a process which seems to have started) then in theory they could keep going.
Of course if Putin did lose Crimea militarily that would be the ultimate humiliation. But this is all supposition for now.

[William51]

I am afraid Russia is making advances in Eastern Ukraine but these weapons will give them a bloody nose.

[ichkeria]

They are giving themselves a bloody nose :-) In the sense that the attrition rate is staggering (for both sides for course but especially the attacking side).

The situation in Sieverodonetsk has stabilised according to reports on the ground. And Ukraine launched a counteroffensive to the south.
More weapons are coming from various countries all the time.
Time will tell if they will be decisive.