ChatterBank1 min ago
Eu 'Rejoiners Debate
interesting article on eu rejoiners, enlightening?
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I enjoy reading the the comments posted on this site and the private wars that have developed between some contributors. I do not often join in these debates but recently I have began to wonder how these pages would read had the referendum result , by the same percentage margin, gone the other way and we had remained within the EU.
Would Brexiteers be arguing for a second referendum as the first one had been so close?
Would Brexiteers be providing evidence that by voting to remaining in the EU our independence had been taken away from us?
Would Brexiteers be arguing that many people had changed their minds and there was evidence that they wanted out of the EU?
Would Remainers tell Brexiteers that they should accept the democratic decision and get over themselves?
Would Remainers tell Brexiteers that the country is a lot better within the EU and they should ignore all the doom and gloom forecasts?
Just a thought but who knows that such a debate is raging in an alternative universe.
Would Brexiteers be arguing for a second referendum as the first one had been so close?
Would Brexiteers be providing evidence that by voting to remaining in the EU our independence had been taken away from us?
Would Brexiteers be arguing that many people had changed their minds and there was evidence that they wanted out of the EU?
Would Remainers tell Brexiteers that they should accept the democratic decision and get over themselves?
Would Remainers tell Brexiteers that the country is a lot better within the EU and they should ignore all the doom and gloom forecasts?
Just a thought but who knows that such a debate is raging in an alternative universe.
gramps: "Would Brexiteers be arguing for a second referendum as the first one had been so close?" - I would have accepted the result but UKIPers would have continued, Independence is their reason for existing.
"Would Brexiteers be providing evidence that by voting to remaining in the EU our independence had been taken away from us?" - We lost our independence long before 2016.
"Would Brexiteers be arguing that many people had changed their minds and there was evidence that they wanted out of the EU?" - I would not, as I actually said on the night of the referendum when I thought remain would win that we as a nation had accepted our "Vichy" status.
"Would Remainers tell Brexiteers that they should accept the democratic decision and get over themselves?" - I hope they would.
"Would Remainers tell Brexiteers that the country is a lot better within the EU and they should ignore all the doom and gloom forecasts?" - No doubt they would but that is a very subjective set of beliefs.
"Just a thought but who knows that such a debate is raging in an alternative universe. " - if you accept the "many worlds" theory of Quantum mechanics then every choice everywhere creates it's own universe. There is even one where Hymie voted brexit for example.
"Would Brexiteers be providing evidence that by voting to remaining in the EU our independence had been taken away from us?" - We lost our independence long before 2016.
"Would Brexiteers be arguing that many people had changed their minds and there was evidence that they wanted out of the EU?" - I would not, as I actually said on the night of the referendum when I thought remain would win that we as a nation had accepted our "Vichy" status.
"Would Remainers tell Brexiteers that they should accept the democratic decision and get over themselves?" - I hope they would.
"Would Remainers tell Brexiteers that the country is a lot better within the EU and they should ignore all the doom and gloom forecasts?" - No doubt they would but that is a very subjective set of beliefs.
"Just a thought but who knows that such a debate is raging in an alternative universe. " - if you accept the "many worlds" theory of Quantum mechanics then every choice everywhere creates it's own universe. There is even one where Hymie voted brexit for example.
//… as the claim was about 29% of SNP voters voting Leave, since when has it been reasonable to approximate that as being 50%?//
That’s apples and oranges, though, Corby.
It is claimed that 29% of SNP voters voted to leave but we don’t know what percentage of those who voted to leave were SNP voters. In theory the 29% of SNP voters who chose leave may be the only people who voted that way. Then we could say that 100% of Leave voters were SNP supporters (just for illustrative purposes; I’m not suggesting for one minute this was the case).
In the last GE the SNP polled 45% of the popular vote so made an assumption that half those who voted to leave were SNP voters. There was no real basis for this – I just wanted to see the potential outcome in the event they had voted to remain.
All highly academic and irrelevant, of course, if for no other reason, we don’t know what percentage of SNP voters chose leave. We keep being told by ynnafymmi that it’s 29% by , but I don’t know what basis there is for the figure. As far as I can recall I did not have to declare which Parliamentary party I supported when I took part in the referendum.
That’s apples and oranges, though, Corby.
It is claimed that 29% of SNP voters voted to leave but we don’t know what percentage of those who voted to leave were SNP voters. In theory the 29% of SNP voters who chose leave may be the only people who voted that way. Then we could say that 100% of Leave voters were SNP supporters (just for illustrative purposes; I’m not suggesting for one minute this was the case).
In the last GE the SNP polled 45% of the popular vote so made an assumption that half those who voted to leave were SNP voters. There was no real basis for this – I just wanted to see the potential outcome in the event they had voted to remain.
All highly academic and irrelevant, of course, if for no other reason, we don’t know what percentage of SNP voters chose leave. We keep being told by ynnafymmi that it’s 29% by , but I don’t know what basis there is for the figure. As far as I can recall I did not have to declare which Parliamentary party I supported when I took part in the referendum.
NJ, I am more than aware that the 29% figure is taken from an opinion poll but it was your view that 50% was a reasonable of those who voted "No" that caught my eye.
However, looking again at what you wrote, it is clear I misunderstood it as I took you to mean that 50% was an approximation of 29% but that is not the case and I apologize.
However, looking again at what you wrote, it is clear I misunderstood it as I took you to mean that 50% was an approximation of 29% but that is not the case and I apologize.
It was a stupid proposition set up by Cameron et al, who must have either
a) been really thick, arrogant, coerced or blackmailed
b) been smoking something
c) been really wanted to Leave after all
A once-in-a-generation deal based on 51.89% of 72.21% turnout, with lies, deception, Cambridge Analytica and everything else to boot. As was mentioned at the time, even changing a golf club constitution would have done a better job of it.
Done is done, and what mugs we are ... as so often. Lessons will be learned, no doubt.
a) been really thick, arrogant, coerced or blackmailed
b) been smoking something
c) been really wanted to Leave after all
A once-in-a-generation deal based on 51.89% of 72.21% turnout, with lies, deception, Cambridge Analytica and everything else to boot. As was mentioned at the time, even changing a golf club constitution would have done a better job of it.
Done is done, and what mugs we are ... as so often. Lessons will be learned, no doubt.
//It was a stupid proposition set up by Cameron et al, who must have either//
Why was it stupid?
There was a clear disquiet among the electorate concerning the UK's EU membership. It had been festering for years and was getting worse as the EU's influence over the UK's affairs increased. Ministers and MPs are supposed to react to the electorate's concerns. It is a fundamental concern of any citizen when a supranational body over which they have no control can impose legislation on them. I believe it was vital the question was asked and it should have been asked much earlier.
As an aside, I'm quite sure Mr Cameron and his pals were none of the things you suggest and I'm very sure neither he nor his allies really wanted to leave (witness him chucking his toys out of the pram on the morning of 24th June 2016).
Why was it stupid?
There was a clear disquiet among the electorate concerning the UK's EU membership. It had been festering for years and was getting worse as the EU's influence over the UK's affairs increased. Ministers and MPs are supposed to react to the electorate's concerns. It is a fundamental concern of any citizen when a supranational body over which they have no control can impose legislation on them. I believe it was vital the question was asked and it should have been asked much earlier.
As an aside, I'm quite sure Mr Cameron and his pals were none of the things you suggest and I'm very sure neither he nor his allies really wanted to leave (witness him chucking his toys out of the pram on the morning of 24th June 2016).
>> It was a stupid proposition
> Why was it stupid?
What, the proposition? For the reasons I gave.
The premise of Leaving the EU was fine. That wasn't stupid. To be clear, what was stupid was how they went about doing it.
Scottish independence is another example. Two roughly 50/50 propositions: if one goes one way we're status quo and the question repeats relentlessly; if one goes the other way then massive change and turmoil, half are happy, the other not, and the thing is done effectively forever. You could see it for UKIP, you can see it with the SNP.
> Why was it stupid?
What, the proposition? For the reasons I gave.
The premise of Leaving the EU was fine. That wasn't stupid. To be clear, what was stupid was how they went about doing it.
Scottish independence is another example. Two roughly 50/50 propositions: if one goes one way we're status quo and the question repeats relentlessly; if one goes the other way then massive change and turmoil, half are happy, the other not, and the thing is done effectively forever. You could see it for UKIP, you can see it with the SNP.
NJ: // It is a fundamental concern of any citizen when a supranational body over which they have no control can impose legislation on them. //
You make it sound like we were getting bullied and pushed about by the bigger boys typical Nigel Farage schtick about us being the 'little people'. Easy to get taken in by that and feel like we should run away I suppose. We were very influential in Europe and the EU is influential in the world. That newly found so say 'control' citizens have now got - what's it being used for? Not much that I can see.
You make it sound like we were getting bullied and pushed about by the bigger boys typical Nigel Farage schtick about us being the 'little people'. Easy to get taken in by that and feel like we should run away I suppose. We were very influential in Europe and the EU is influential in the world. That newly found so say 'control' citizens have now got - what's it being used for? Not much that I can see.
//You make it sound like we were getting bullied and pushed about by the bigger boys…//
I made no such accusation, archi. But you fundamentally misunderstand. It isn’t what’s was done that I objected to; it wasn’t how it was done or presented. It was the fact that it could be done at all. I’ve no real concern what the EU did and did not do or whether or not it was to the UK’s advantage. I am ideologically opposed to the notion that any organisation can claim supremacy over the UK Parliament – which the EU does, as described in this declaration from the Lisbon Treaty:
https:/
It’s very unfortunate that many supporters of the EU fail to grasp this. Instead they concentrate on the advantages of membership and the disadvantages of being outside. So long as EU Treaties and the ECJ claim this primacy I want the UK to have nothing to do with it, however good or bad it may be.
//…typical Nigel Farage schtick about us being the 'little people'.//
I made the decision in 1992 that I would vote to leave the EU if ever given the opportunity (which I never believed I would). At that time, Nigel Farage was 28 years old and not an active politician. Nothing he said or did then (particularly as I’d never heard of him) or since has influenced my decision in any way.
//That newly found so say 'control' citizens have now got - what's it being used for? Not much that I can see.//
Alas once again you completely miss the point. It isn’t about what the UK government has done or can do. It is about the fact that it can now make decisions without the threat of EU law taking precedence over them. That principle is of greater importance to me than a percentage point either way on the country's GDP.
I made no such accusation, archi. But you fundamentally misunderstand. It isn’t what’s was done that I objected to; it wasn’t how it was done or presented. It was the fact that it could be done at all. I’ve no real concern what the EU did and did not do or whether or not it was to the UK’s advantage. I am ideologically opposed to the notion that any organisation can claim supremacy over the UK Parliament – which the EU does, as described in this declaration from the Lisbon Treaty:
https:/
It’s very unfortunate that many supporters of the EU fail to grasp this. Instead they concentrate on the advantages of membership and the disadvantages of being outside. So long as EU Treaties and the ECJ claim this primacy I want the UK to have nothing to do with it, however good or bad it may be.
//…typical Nigel Farage schtick about us being the 'little people'.//
I made the decision in 1992 that I would vote to leave the EU if ever given the opportunity (which I never believed I would). At that time, Nigel Farage was 28 years old and not an active politician. Nothing he said or did then (particularly as I’d never heard of him) or since has influenced my decision in any way.
//That newly found so say 'control' citizens have now got - what's it being used for? Not much that I can see.//
Alas once again you completely miss the point. It isn’t about what the UK government has done or can do. It is about the fact that it can now make decisions without the threat of EU law taking precedence over them. That principle is of greater importance to me than a percentage point either way on the country's GDP.
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