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As We All Know The Job Losses At The Port Talbot Steelworks Have Nothing To Do With Brexit
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Tell you waht I'll save us all a bit if time especially the judge:
Judge Part 1 //“As ever, my mate Phil explains the full story, and the disaster this Brexit caused closure is for Port Talbot.”
Not so. As ever, your mate Phil says something repeatedly and hopes everybody will believe it is true (whether or not he believes it I neither know nor care).
The only justification he provides for Brexit being the cause of the loss of this steel plant is that, as the UK is no longer a member of the EU, it does not enjoy the “protections” for the industry that the EU provides. (Do tell me if he mentions anything else which I've missed). He neglects to mention that those protections are also failing to save many steel plants within the EU.
The UK’s steel industry has been in decline for decades. But the reason that decline has accelerated recently is down to one reason – you cannot make steel on an industrial scale and profitably without burning coal. Europe will no longer countenance burning coal (even its most voracious coal-eater - Germany - is having to cut dow), so steel cannot be made here. It’s as simple as that. Whatever remains of Europe’s steel-making capacity will be die a death. That doesn’t matter whether it is within the EU or outside it. The arc furnaces that are being developed will be white elephants. They can only melt down existing scrap steel and the supplies of that are not plentiful enough to sustain a business. The furnaces are just a sop to those suggesting that “net zero” might not be such a good idea and this development is but one of very many that will manifest themselves over the coming years which will reduce much of Europe to an industrial backwater.//
judge part 2: //
“…but some countries are still producing steel somehow.”
They produce it because they have not priced their industries out of business by pursuing policies which increase the cost of energy beyond the level those businesses can bear. And they produce it because they don’t care how much coal they burn. So consider this:
- China burns more coal than the rest of the world put together, India and the USA burn 40% of the rest.
- Between 2017 and 2022 China’s carbon emissions increased by 15% (1.64bn tons) to 12.66bn tons. By contrast the UK’s total emissions in 2022 were 10% lower than in 2017, at a total of 0.34bn tons. So, to offset the increase in emissions by China it would need five countries with emissions at the UK’s level to cease all their emissions entirely.
That’s why other countries such as China, India and the USA produce steel and much else besides. It is because their governments have not sacrificed the wellbeing of their economies and their people on the altar of the ridiculous and unachievable net zero. The people of those governments who have, will see their economies, their standards of living and their livelihoods decrease enormously as a result. And it won’t be because of Brexit.
I chuckled when “Phil” spoke of the transition that he says should have taken place in Port Talbot from high carbon jobs to low carbon jobs, rather than closing the steel works. I wonder what sort of “low carbon” jobs he envisages await the people of South Wales in the Brave New Low Carbon World?//
There you go now read and digest.
It’s good to see that most ABers know more about steelmaking in Wales than the First Minister of Wales - who oversaw the transition of Tata, all of the negotiations that happened post Brexit in relation to the steelworks, oversaw all the government minister meetings involved at the core of all those issues.
https:/
Brexit was affecting the steel industry way back in 1972.
This is what I wrote on the last thread which Hymie ignored as usual. "For Hymie to blame Brexit as usual is not right as when we were in the EU they wanted to cut as much steel production as they could in the UK and get it made in the big steel works in Germany and other parts of the EU still using blast furnaces in many cases."
As Hymie is so into the EU how is it that in today's Express there is this item. It makes the EU not as good as Hymie would like us to believe and it seems no one was asked their opinion before it was introduced.
"Daily Express
The Eurozone has turned into an inescapable "black hole" for its 19 members, a financial expert has warned, a quarter of a century after the launch of the single European currency.
The euro was launched in a blaze of publicity on January 1, 1999, with the aim of establishing a massive single market with the potential to compete with the United States, Bob Lyddon told Express.co.uk.
However, the founder of Lyddon Consulting Services says in the 25 years which have followed, reality has bitten - hard.
"Implementing the Third Stage of Economic and Monetary Union - introducing the euro - was a contract between the EU's political-financial elite and the EU's citizens and businesses, not that citizens and businesses were allowed to vote on whether they agreed: the EU's political-financial elite supplied both signatures on the contract without consulting them."
As above, haven’t we done this???
https:/
In the earlier YouTube effort your mate Phil simply kept repeating “It’s due to Brexit. It’s due to Brexit.” You may recall I remarked that’s all it seemed to consist of:
“The only justification he provides for Brexit being the cause of the loss of this steel plant is that, as the UK is no longer a member of the EU, it does not enjoy the “protections” for the industry that the EU provides. (Do tell me if he mentions anything else which I've missed). He neglects to mention that those protections are also failing to save many steel plants within the EU.”
And now we come to this. I’ve watched the video (with sub-titles, so as not to disturb Mrs NJ). In fact I’ve watched it twice
The only mention I’ve seen of Brexit is where the presenter says this:
“The reason the plant closed down was because of lack of investment and complications because of Brexit.”
That was it. There was no expansion on that statement, no explanation, no reasoning given. He went on to ask some Welsh government cove if he had been approached by any of the media representatives to ask him why the plant had closed. “No” was his one word reply. He probably wouldn’t have had much to say anyway. Here’s a statement from the Welsh government on the matter:
https:/
No mention of the reason for the closure there either. Only a repeated statement that “the government” could have done more to keep it open”. No mention of Brexit. No mention of lack of investment. Just woolly statements about “embracing new technologies" etc.
For the final minute or so the presenter rants on about the media being beholden to government and shady millionaires. It was at this point his rantings gave me cause for concern for his health. I needn’t have worried as he recovered his composure before signing off with the begging bowl to raise funds so that he can tour the country with his camera to gain more “exclusive insights” into the corruption of mainstream media.
So, I’ll ask again:
• Do you have some proof that the Port Talbot steelworks is facing closure because of Brexit?
• Do you have any statements from government, Tata, or even the Welsh government to support that?
• Do you have evidence from anywhere, in fact, that goes beyond people ranting on YouTube that they’ve said it, so it must be true?
• Do you have anything to explain why steelworks across Europe (in countries still in the EU) also face closure?
• Do you understand that steelmaking must involve burning coal and that the UK will not countenance that, in order to burnish its “Net Zero” credentials?
•Do you wonder why multinational companies that rely on sensible energy policies are turning away from Europe?
Don’t rush because I’m not holding my breath.
I forgot to add:
• If I put it about on YouTube that the moon was made of cheese, would you believe me?
If the world’s leading expert on the moon said it was made of cheese – who am I to doubt them.
Similarly, if someone who has intimate knowledge of the political and economic reasons for the closure of a steelworks (having been involved in it for many years, including at the very highest level of government) said it was Brexit - who am I to doubt them.
Hymie - An opinion is an opinion, a fact is a fact.
Just because some youth you agree with spouts his opinion into his video camera doesn't instantly make one into the other.
It remains what it was before he deluded himself into thinking that spouting makes him an expert, and it's sill just an opinion that sides with yours so you stick it on here under the illusion that his self-videoed opinion makes your posted opinion into a fact.
It doesn't.
"Similarly, if someone who has intimate knowledge of the political and economic reasons for the closure of a steelworks (having been involved in it for many years, including at the very highest level of government) said it was Brexit - who am I to doubt them."
There’s two reasons why you should have reason to question their assertions:
On a general note, lots of people with allegedly lots of "intimate knowledge" of various topics blame Brexit for many things. Before you unreservedly accept their claims you must dig a little into their motives. Most people who supported the UK’s membership of the EU will lay the blame for all manner of the country’s ills on to Brexit. You don’t have to look very far, possibly no further than in the mirror. .
As for this particular cove, you haven’t actually said who he is. You’ve described him thus:
“…the guy who oversaw the transition of Tata, all of the negotiations that happened post Brexit in relation to the steelworks, oversaw all the government minister meetings involved at the core of all those issues –“
And again::
“It’s good to see that most ABers know more about steelmaking in Wales than the First Minister of Wales –“
Well he's certainly not the current Welsh First Minister, Mark Drakeford. I've managed to establish that he is Carwyn Jones, who was First Minister from 2009 to 2018. As far as I can tell, he has been involved neither in top level politics nor the steel industry since then, having resigned in December 2018. At that time he had endured one or two issues involving allegations the he had misled the Assembly about bullying problems in the Government which were first alleged in 2014, and which Jones in 2017 told the Assembly had been resolved. He was cleared of those allegations but his energy may have been diverted during the time it was held.
So quite how you can say he “…oversaw the transition of Tata, all of the negotiations that happened post Brexit in relation to the steelworks, oversaw all the government minister meetings involved at the core of all those issues” , is a little difficult to fathom. This is especially so when the UK did not officially submit its notice to quit the EU (Article 50) until the end of March 2017 and did not officially leave the EU until more than a year after his departure from office.
So what privileged and intimate knowledge does Mr Jones hold that he might say that the plant’s closure was due to Brexit? I’ve managed to find a transcript of his “interview” with ByLine, the producers of your YouTube clip: (something which, incidentally, I didn’t hear him say in the YouTube clip).
Speaking to Byline TV, he said:
”It is inevitable that if there are barriers put up between one market and another, that’s not going to help somebody selling into that second market.
“And that’s what we’ve seen recently, of course. I think the uncertainty surrounding Brexit, the uncertainty in terms of the future, the civil war that’s taking place inside the Conservative Party, all these things are factors that any business that’s looking to export to the EU will take into account when deciding to invest in the UK.”
So basically, his assertions come down to “It’s obvious, innit”. No mention of why.
Well it isn’t obvious because there are other factors in play and if you spent half an hour investigating Mr Jones instead of blindly accepting what he says as gospel, we may have been spared this thread.
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