Hamas,Israel and Palestine

[Lonnie]

It looks now, like Hamas is going to form the next goverment of Palestine, they have said that talks with Israel are not ruled out, I certainly hope thats the road they'll go down, but if they keep on their mandate 'the destruction of Israel', I can't see peace in the Middle East ever happening. I wondered what your thought on this are.

[BigMac]

HI, Lonnie - I have lots of thoughts, but I heard on the radio this morning (and on Channel 4 News last night) that the 'destruction of Israel' was dropped from the manifesto and the learned commentators suggested that this was a seismic shift, that it was not just for the election period. It was also suggested that the 1967 borders might be acceptable, which is an implicit acceptance of the state of Israel.

So, fingers crossed, it might be a good thing?

[gary baldy]

I dont know why i continue to be surprised by the warped coverage given to this subject.
Hamas are a democratically elected party yet every other word in yesterdays news reports was 'murder' or 'terrorist' and every other image was of the aftermath of a car bomb or some young palestinian firing an AK in to the air.
Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness were once the devil incarnate but some of the protagonists in the Northern Irish situation were grown up enough to ignore the rhetoric and realise that the current situation was unsustainable.
In Isreal/ Palestine hopefully the main players will also be grown up enough to have meaningful dialogue and not slip back in to age old dogma as justification for their actions.
Give Hamas a chance to prove themselves as a force for good.

[noxlumos]

My wife , who is Jewish, thinks this is the greatest chance for peace possible ever in the middle east, as previously Hamas were always a thorn in the side of that process. Now they have power and appear to be seriously considering acting in a responsible manner, then just imagine, any agreement that they did manage to come to, and I'm not saying that will be easy, has a very real chance of being adhered to by both sides, rather than undermined by extremeists. I really hope they seize this opportunity, it's really a great one.

[Ward-Minter]

I suppose similarities with Sinn Fein getting power in NI are (vaguely) relevant. Look what good that did. More bombs that you can shake a stick at.

As Mr Bush says you cannot negotiate with terrorists. And they don't come more full oh hate that Hamas.

You know my answer. Nuke Palestine now before the West is destroyed.

[Lonnie]

BigMac, I certainly hope your right, I don't get to watch much television, what I get is from the papers, but i'll make an effort to find out more, if they have, thats the best news one could here. Thanks.

gary, I have to agree with you, they were democratically elected, and as such, should be given a chance, I was worried that having taken power, they wouldn't change their mandate, lets hope that what BM says proves to be true.

noxlumas, both my wife and I are Jewish, I have all my mothers side living in Israel, they went there from Egypt in 1947, so you can see why I might seem a bit preoccupied with the area. I agree, if it turns out that Hamas has changed their mandate, and taken the 'Destruction of Israel' off it, then yes, this could be the very thing thats needed to put the peace plan into overdrive, lets hope so, because if they haven't, God help the world.

[Lonnie]

Sorry Ward-Minter, missed yours, generally speaking, i'd agree with you, as i've said, if BMs post is right, we'll have to wait and see, if its wrong, well, I think nuk'em is a bit strong, but certainly something drastic has to be done.

[gary baldy]

Sorry Ward Minter:

"I suppose similarities with Sinn Fein getting power in NI are (vaguely) relevant. Look what good that did. More bombs that you can shake a stick at."

What to you base this 'evidence' on? The majority of violence in NI is infighting between Loyalist factions. I dont know where you get the idea that there are 'bombs you can shake a stick at' going off since the Good Friday Agreement.
Maybe you know something i dont?

[Ward-Minter]

Well Mr Baldy, having served three tours there I do know something you don't. But we'll keep that a secret.

[Zen]

i see the Americans say they will not negotiate with them unless they renounce violence,not a bad statement from the people that brought you the Iraq,Afghanistan,Vietnam wars secretly bombeb Laos and Cambodia helped overthrow various democratically elected governments around the world...........................................................................................................................................

[noxlumos]

Ward-Minter you've surpassed yourself this time, you've managed to show your ignorance on two topics at once instead of your usual one at a time method.

The IRA and have put beyond use the weapons they were requested to, there were independant observers to make sure of that and as Gary says the vast majority of violence in the north is between warring factions on the Loyalist side.If you served three tours there ( I thought the limit was 2 tours to the north???) then you would know that, or were you something really special I wonder since you seem to have information the rest of us don't? I'd naturally not expect you to divulge your James Bond like secrets on answerbank, after all you've done a marvellous job already of keeping the multitude of IRA bombings that have taken place in the last 12 months out of the papers and off our TV's.

Wherever there is a civil war people have to stick their necks out and attempt peace, because if they don't it will go on and on and on forever. Hamas are democratically elected, therefore the will at least on that of the people of Palestine should be respected. It's so disturbing to hear an ex soldier express such violent and unreasonable sentiments about a country, who have just had a democratic election. Easy to see why the troops are so hated in Iraq when opinions like that are attributed to soldiers.

[gary baldy]

Cannot add to that noxlumos!
Perhaps Ward Minter got too close to one of these mystery bombs we (and my friends in Belfast) haven't heard about and took a knock on the head.

[Lonnie]

Just a quickie on the postings to NI, I served there three times also, 69, 73, & 76, I think the only real stipulation is age, you can be too young, mind you, I was in Aden at eighteen.

[Ward-Minter]

Look what good that did. ie in the past. Who mentioned The Good Friday Agreement????

My point which was quite easily understandable (or so I thought) refers to when a Political party is placed in control with historic terrorist links like Sinn Fein, war/terror did not stop. If anything it worsened. However, you have managed to mention the IRA so you do realise there are links with Sinn Fein and the IRA. Well done.

You also mention civil war. Another good phrase and link. I am surprised you didn't call NI and the Israel conflict "freedom fighting".

You also mention Iraq when it is usually me who links evil Islamist together. These links dear boy show me we are perhaps not that different. Apart from the fact I do not have a criminal record.

Further, I don't know how long you have been on AB but i have only recently seen your name. I have expunged my service days' tales to death so won't bore myself with repetition.

PS I don't know where you got the info that two tours is the limit. But then again I was special.

PS this has been said a million times on here before and I lower myself to even say it, but why do people start harping on that others are ignorant blah blah blah if they find their viewpoint subversive or different?

How dull and boring such a site would be if we all agreed. Think about it.

[kempie]

I believe Ward-Minter that you would have had a different focus point if you had served your tours 60 years ago.

After "terrorist" Menachem Begin's 1948 bombing of British headquarters at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem I am sure you would have been consistent and called for the blanket bombing of Zionists.

When Jewish gunmen hanged two British sergeants, booby-trapping their bodies into the bargain, would you have been outraged?

"You cannot negotiate with terrorists" - it seems the US did in 1948. So, when is a terrorist no longer a terrorist?

[Ward-Minter]

when he's dead kempie. When he's dead.

[noxlumos]

Ward-Minter I think you'll find we are very different men, at least I hope so. The reality of the situation in the North is that since Sinn Fein have been afforded some manner of power the violence has stopped, it has not got worse.Open your eyes.I have been to prison, but I believe that I am a good husband, father and man, at least I try to be, so where is the relevance in bringing that up to the present converation unless it's a vain attempt to take the moral high ground? Please feel free if it makes you feel better, after all you are special. Would it be that in your case that SAS by any chancestabds for "Special A******e Speaking"?

I don't really care what your opinion is and indeed welcome it for amusement value ( I do enjoy your posts even if I don't agree with them) but lets give Hamas a chance to sort it out there without assuming that they will be automatically baying for blood. There seems to be only one person doing that at the moment....

Thanks to you and to lonnie for pointing out that 3 tours is possible, my error.

[gary baldy]

Trying to bring the thread back round and following on from kempie's point about when is a terrorist no longer a terrorist.
Watched an interesting programme about Mossad last night on C4. Nothing i didnt know already but reminded me who the real terrorists are.
Its not Hamas who will scupper any peace process it is the deeply entrenched Zionists who threaten it.

[Lonnie]

All interesting and well quallified answers, thanks guys, just like to say, believe me, I have a good reason to hate,(if thats not too strong a word), Hamas, but as has been pointed out, they have been democratically elected, and, in what appears to be, a fair election, so in the interests of peace, they should be given the chance.

[gary baldy]

Here! Here!

[Ward-Minter]

noxy perhaps we are different afterall Because unlike you I do care about your opinion. That's why I come on here. And any man who tells you they are SAS or ex-SAS are lying dear boy. I am thankful I amuse you, it's a shame you don't listen to the true voice of reason. Nevermind.

lonnie good point. But remember Hitler was "democratically" voted in at the beginning. I don't think "hate" is a strong word at all. I personally wish any supporter of hamas the worse possible and bloody painful death imaginable to mankind. But that's me.

Whatever people think of me of course Peace in our time is an ultimate utopia. However, do you honestly believe in your heart of hearts (not want or desire) but "honestly believe" that hamas wants peace? Without fear I will stand up and say no. Those like me who have faced soldiers and indeed people of an anti-west disposition will know what I mean. And I don't mean the slightly angry arabic youth down the pub on a Friday night spouting on about the evils of Bush/Blair. I mean real evil.