robert mccartney murder

[tali122]

what was the dispute that caused robert mccartney's murder by the IRA? - an irish friend of mine claimed it was not politics but derogratory remaks made about women known to the parties involved -any ideas

[Ethel]

Excellent article here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_McCartney_ (murder_victim)

[noxlumos]

The thing some people appear not to understand is that it's perfectly possible to be killed or maimed by members of the IRA but not by the IRA itself. It was not an IRA killing, it was a pub brawl which involved members of the IRA, there is a huge difference.

To describe it as an IRA killing would be like saying it was a "Labour Party killing",if John Prescott's wife stabbed him because he'd had an affair. The political persuasions in this case of those involved are merely descriptions of their personal political leanings, it has actually no relevance to the reason for the killing which was that it was simply a fight in a pub.

[kempie]

Although I agree that no overtly political motivation is apparent for the attack upon Robert McCartney (nor Brendan Devine) I do think that it is not proper to describe...

being half beaten to death, one eye gouged out, throat cut, repeatedly stabbed and then gutted, and finally being left to die while the killers returned to the pub from which they had flushed him, to warn the customers there of the fate awaiting them if they informed and then proceeding to destroy all the forensic evidence associated with the killing along with making off with the cassette from the CCTV...

as "simply a fight in a pub".

[noxlumos]

So if it wasn't a fight in a pub then what was it? It certainly was not a politically motivated IRA endorsed hit, it was simply a personal disagreement which became very violent.The fact that many people are not familar with that level of violence in their daily lives doesn't make it any more or less sinister than it was, which was a fight in a pub.

This sort of thing goes on frequently in Belfast and I would imagine in most major cities in the world.I just can't see the relevance of anyone's personal political beliefs being bandied about in this case, or in any other to be honest.Robert McCartney was himself a Republican, as were his killers, so it was NOT a sectarian attack, it was a ( albeit very nasty) fight in a pub.

[kempie]

No... it was not a fight

15 against 2 is not a fight.

...and although I originally stated that there is no obvious sectarian motivation this didn't stop the attackers re-entering the pub and saying 'Nobody saw anything; this is IRA business.'

Of course I was never a witness to any of this; nor were the 70-odd other potential witnesses who were all in the pub toilet (or TARDIS) at the time.

[noxlumos]

Well no-one has any control over what an individual says, except that individual, so just as Robert McCartney and Devine in particular should have known better than to open their mouths, so should the men responsible for killing them have known better than to implicate the IRA in their personal vendettas.The IRA offered to deal with the situation but the family of Robert McCartney didn't want that to happen.

It did the IRA no good at all and set back the Republican cause considerably for some time as the sisters of McCartney became very vocal and stirred up a great deal of animosity towards Republicanism to such a degree that finally their own community, which had been very supportive of their loss, finally lost patience.

I am sorry that Robert McCartney died, I'm sick to death to be honest of the killing and dying on all sides there, but honestly Kempie, it's not that unusual, you only heard about it over here because his sisters kicked up a fuss, and in this case it was not an ordered event, it was a personal fight, so how else could you honestly describe it? It wasn't an IRA execution, he was beaten and stabbed which, however many people were or were not involved, equals a fight of some sort.The IRA were not, as an organisation, involved.

As to alleged witnesses being in the toilets, you have to understand something of allegiance as well as fear. The PSNI do sod all for the Catholic community so when they ask questions about anything they get no co-operation, because they turn a blind eye to things like Catholic abductions and killings, so if you want to blame anyone for a lack of co-operation try having a look the police and their general attitude to people when they are actually needed. Seamus Ludlow springs to mind, but that's not such hot news over here because he was killed by Loyalists.

[kempie]

noxlumos - why is it that twice I have submitted posts which do not link the attack to any political imperative and you immediately respond with posts which turn the topic back to politics?

Why do you also persist in preferring to call a murder "a fight"?

[noxlumos]

Your responses on the one hand state that there is no political imperative but you then immediately contradict yourself and then go on to imply a political element.

I'm sorry you feel that what I have to say about that is invalid, but I maintain that what initiated this was a fight in a pub which led to the killing/murder of Robert McCartney and for you to imply anything else is frankly ludicrous. Whether you agree with my definition of a fight is irrelevant, I was merely clarifying the political angle, you are downright telling me it was not a fight but something more sinister that led to his death and you've not answered a single question I put to you.If it was not a fight that started it, then what was it? Please answer me, because I'd love to know.