Veils and Integration..

[dummkopf]

I thought to myself with this latest problem of the veil what a great opportunity for the muslim council to say - ""OK girls, stop wearing the veil ,stick to the headscarf if necessary ,as the full veil does offend/intimidate some people here in the UK"" . What a move towards better understanding that would be !

[Whickerman]

Or, what a great opportunity for some to say "Hey, I don't care what you wear, it's your own business, and if I get offended because you're being over-modest, I should probably get some help. And if I feel intimidated by a housewife in a dress, I'll just crawl back into my hole."

You're right. Opportunity wasted.

[OBonio]

I watched some news item the other night which interviewed a few muslims about their thoughts on integration into the UK. A couple of them said it wouldn't happen. The one reason that stuck in my head was by one 'oik' who said 'Muslims can never integrate into the UK because our way of life is far superior to the British way of life.'....

Spitting blood I was.... I'm sure it's not a representative view of the Muslim community, but it makes you think how many of these idiots are there and why aren't the Muslim community doing anything about them?

[admarlow]

I think this comes down to a culture thing, and in british and Western culture there is something dodgy about a person who chooses to hide their identity and/or face. Now we are always being told to respect others cultures, well it seams that it could be argued that in our culture it is seen as , well a bit shifty to hide your face (the same was that you wouldn't touch an indian with your left hand). Dispite this I feel that if they do want to cover up, then fine, as long as they don't mind removing the mask when need be, i.e. at the airport, and in a bank.

[sp1814]

admarlow's comments hit the nail on the head.

I think we find it curious because it's so alien to us. However, I don't think we could ever demand the removal of veils, because as must as we might find the wearing distasteful (in terms of sexual equality - but that's a ahole different ball game) we have to respect freedom of choice.

[sp1814]

or rather "a whole"!!!

[dummkopf]

I won't comment on Whickerman's sarcastic response..

It was my understanding that the obligation for women to wear the full veil applied in Islamic countries only. They are not forced to wear it, it just occurred to me that it would be a step in the right direction if the British Muslim Council didn't sit back so much, maybe tried a little to 'appease' the host country a bit , instead of always the other way around.
There will always be a gap in the cultures but the gap is in danger of becoming ( if it's not alread) - a gulf.

[juddlinski]

"it was my understanding that the obligation for women to wear the veil applied in Islamic countries only."

Well you'd know better than them wouldn't you? Obviously you've read the Koran?

Seems like everyone's an expert in Muslim law these days! What an incredibly enlightened bunch of people we are...

For the record, Whickerman's correct.

[sp1814]

Just been thinking about this one...and there's something I think we've all failed to appreciate.

Let's say today we encourage Muslim women to discard the veil, who's to say that's where people will leave it?

What about people who feel threatened by the men who wear the beards? What about other garments? What about local residents' objections to chanting at mosques?

It could be the thin edge of the wedge...at what point will something 'foreign' be acceptable to the indigenous population?

[Big Al1st]

Hi, One thing that gets up my nose is that alot of people are saying that it is their right to wear a veil if they want. Today someone on TV said they had the same right as someone who wanted to wear a mini skirt.

I would like to see a Western woman wear a mini skirt in places like Saudi Arabia and Iran. For that matter you are not supposed to take bibles into those countries.

Whats good for the goose???

[juddlinski]

The single most predictable response when talking about any muslim issue is for someone to say 'i'd like to see what happened if we did such and such in Saudi Arabia or Iran...'.

So well done BigAl for using the hypothetical scenario of someone wearing a mini-skirt in Saudi Arabia or Iran. You get todays unimaginative bigot award.

[jump79]

I don't think wearing veils and such is compulsory in this religion as not all muslim women wear it, just like not all muslims wear headscarves either, so it seems to be a cultural thing, ie- people from certain countries/ backgrounds who follow a more stricter code and lifestyle.

I think women should stop wearing veils but the change should not be forced onto them. They should be made to understand by their communities why it is unecessary and also that they are not obligated to do this by their religion, rather than simply being told to take it off.

[Big Al1st]

Hey Judd, The reason why it is hypothetical is because you cannot do those things over there!
I am not a bigot, never have been,never will but I am getting a little bit fed up of this whole thing.
I believe that the average Muslim has three things going against them
1. The radical priests ect who preach against the western way of life and some of the younger generation ( like the one on the news the other night who stated that Islam was superior to western religions)
2. Many of the Muslim Leaders that seem to take similar lines and dont seem to help the situation.
3 The PC people who, for example say that we should not celebrate Christmas but have a Winter Fest, and crosses and crucifixes should not be worn against we upset the Muslims.

The above is doing more than anything to cause these situations and discussions.
It is not stated in the Koran that full veils should be worn and it would seem that alot of the younger woman have started to wear these items more as a fashion statement than anything..
If the above three items disappeared then these discussions would simply disappear.
Lastly why do you go against me when I said that you are not allowed to do these things in Saudi ect. When I was out there there were no Christian Churches allowed as far as I know except in the Western Compounds, Western Woman were not allowed to drive and had to wear at least three quarter length dresses. It may have changed somewhat now, but my argument was women should be allowed to wear, within reason what they like, but they are not allowed to in these countries. We have to obey their rules and respect their culture and religion which, as far as I am concerned is quite correct. So why cant they do the same here which is after all a mainly Christian Country.
As for your award, if it makes you feel better I will put it on my mantle piece as a first. Never been called that before! If I came over like that

[Big Al1st]

Last sentence should have said
If I came over like that it was completely unintentional

[dummkopf]

Big All you didn't come across as a bigot ...not at all. It's just that juddlinski seems to like to cut and paste a part of your (or mine or anybody's) post and then make some unpleasant remark, without actually adding anything to the topic !!
Don't worry about it....

[Big Al1st]

Big thanks for that Dummkopf. Appreciate it Rgds Al

[juddlinski]

Christ, get a room you two.

[dummkopf]

I rest my case .....

[Bazile]

I read today that a sun reporter dressed in the full attire , inc. veil was waived through airport checks , without having to reveal her face .

I have no objection to people wearing what they want , however what does this say about security at our airports - or other ports of entry to the UK - this is what concerns me .
Does it concern anyone else ?

[keyvan]

I don't have problem with people women wearing these veils only if that makes them feel comfortable. The problem is as sp pointed out earlier if these religious women discard the veil because they have been asked to at what point would we draw the line? The next thing may be that men should not wear beards and the debate can carry on into why people of different faiths wear hat, beard, or different attire.
Big Al 1st as an Iranian who has grown up in this country, I am aware of the limitations that exist with the dress codes as far as Iran is concerned. Having visited the country three times over the last four years I can tell you that the majority of women in Iran do not like wearing scarves let alone the long veils. The wearing of these scarves in places like Tehran is becoming a trend where women wear colorful scarves as fashion accessories that will cover least amount of hair. And they just wear with minimal adherence to the unsuccessful attempt by the government to set "proper dress code". Why do they wear scarves? It dates back to when the revolution started there almost 27 years ago. I can only base my assumption on what I have seen whilst there and can assure you that as soon as Iranian women are not in public places they change back to skirts.
I love the sense of irony in this! Although the government in Iran is pushing hard to ask women to adhere to islamic values in public places it is having exactly the opposite effect. Many women infact do hate being told what to wear and do exactly the opposite.

[sandyg2244]

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