Tramp the dirt down

[bigmalc]

Good riddance, then, to Augusto Pinochet. Might be worth watching his funeral highlights, if not just to see Thatcher cry again! (In case anyone needed more proof that she is pure, undiluted evil).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/chile/story/0,,19693 21,00.html

[whiffey]

As bad as Churchill and Roosevelt and the whole of the allied western world associating with Stalin. All equally bad, the Katyn massacre was a complete secret.

[jno]

while I appreciate that a statesman like whiffey would never dream of associating with the likes of Stalin, I'd be interested to hear his alternative plan for defeating Nazi Germany.

[whiffey]

Fortunately jno I wasn't around to face that dilemma, nor the even more moot point as to whether or not 'we' should have picked up with the German remnant and driven Stalin's hordes back. Either way we'd still have the even worse unholy mess we have now.

[Dolly1308]

Everybody is wise after the event.!!!

[jake-the-peg]

No - Pinnochet is not a case of 20:20 hindsight.

He is generally accepted to have been responsible for the torture and murder of thousands of pollitical opponants.

Despite this Margaret Thatchers spokesman has just said how she is "greatly saddened" by his death.

Such a statement of sympathy was not necessary for political reasons and shows that Margaret Thatcher was quite capable of turning a blind eye to enormous crimes for personal friendships.

I'll also remind you that she continually supported the apartheit regieme in South Africa and would have kept that regieme going and Nelson Mandela in gaol if she could have.


I understand that she is the "pin up girl" of the right but their devotion to her does tend to miss some very questionalable (that's as polite as I can put it) foreign policy judgements

[WaldoMcFroog]

"In her time, Margaret Thatcher was immensely popular."

However, equally true is the statement, "In her time, Margaret Thatcher was immensely unpopular." Surely you can't have been unaware of that?!!

"At the time Blair went to war, he had a huge backing based on the intelligence available at the time. "

Again, equally true is that loads of us knew that Blair's war was a crock and marched against it at the time. If an MP recieves a letter, it is deemed to be the equivalent of seven people's opinions come polling day. If a million were able and prepared to march through London, and however many hundreds of thousands in other cold wintery British towns, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that represented far more than a 1=7 who rejected the justifications for war and did so without the benefit of hindsight *and* were subsequently proved correct in their cynicism.

In short, I agree entirely with those who have said that not supporting your leader has very little to do with being unpatriotic.

[Loosehead]

MrsT was the finest peacetime leader this country has ever had. She saved the country from Left wing to55ers like you so that you can hate her for it. Forgive them Maggie they know not what they do.

[WaldoMcFroog]

... and because you apparently actually believe that, it makes my statement that she wasn't universally loved wrong how, exactly?

Yes, exactly.

Isn't it time for your nap, so you're on top form for Countdown?

[BigDogsWang]

Out of curiosity, are there any members or voters of the 'Respect' party involved in this thread?

[Loosehead]

Well Waldo I wasn't actually referring to your comments directly just the general Thatcher hating sentiment in this thread. I'm sure she wasn't universally loved as you put it. I am sure though if it wasn't for her your socialist mates would have had us all living in caves by now. Have so many of you got such short memeories? Can you not remember the state of the country when MT took over? The jobs that went where artificial, created because the Union power at the time made it all but impossible to fire anyone. Can you not see that spending zillions to keep innefficient jobs going was what brough the Labour government, cap in hand the the IMF? Can you not see it was Union dogma and socialism that made us "the sick man of Europe" and that that was what ulitimately destroyed jobs? There are none so blind as those who will not see!

[Loosehead]

Oh and by the way bigmalc, they are called the Falklands.

[bigmalc]

Not if you're Argentinian.

[sp1814]

Hang on a second - I just want to blow up a myth here...

It wasn't just socialists who had a problem with Thatcherism.

There were plenty of moderates like me (yep - I lean to the right of the Labour Party - go figure) who could see that the monetraist principles that she and Professor Alan Walters espoused would only lead to economic misery for millions.

It did.

We cannot simply ignore that fact because hundreds of thousands of people did well out of the 80s (deregulation of the City of London, sale of council houses), there were flaws in the principles of monetarism which left millions of families considerably worst off.

I don't think that Thatcher was evil per se.

Just cruel.

Yeah...I think cruel is about as far as I'd go.

[bigmalc]

Seems that you have an equally short memory Loosehead. Can't YOU remember what sort of a state the country was in when Maggie left? Or is the widest gap between rich and poor in the developed world just an unfortunate by product of greed to you and not something to be disgusted by?

[jake-the-peg]

Actually Loosehead I'm trying to take a fairly dispationate view of Margaret Thatcher which you don't seem capable of.

(I thought you better than personal abuse - maybe you meant it light heartedly)

There's a fair argument that Margaret Thatchers Government precipitated the Falklands Invasion by withdrawing the right to UK passports from foreign dependancies she may have signalled that Britain did not care about them. There was certainly a major failure of intelligence.

But to hear some speak you'd think she personally stormed Port Stanley with a greanade in her teeth.

Whilst we're looking a foreign policy disasters - didn't she sign Maastrict? - Personally I'd say it was a redeeming feature of her foreign policy but I know many of you right wing to55ers ;c) <---(Note the smiley to indicate irony) would beg to differ.

[bigmalc]

At the time of the Malvinas conflict ;-), Thatcher's govt. was the most unpopular in history. Nothing like a good old war to boost the anti-foreigner feelings and feel good about your own country! And, equally, nothing like a bad war to highlight your own failings!

[bigmalc]

See this link for alternate govt.

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Society-and-Cul ture/Question333615.html

[jno]

Thatcher's method was monetarism, the idea that you kept inflation in check by controlling the money supply; it was more or less invented by Milton Friedman, who died last month. In later years, he admitted he'd got it wrong: 'Judged by practice, we have been, despite some successes, mostly on the losing side. Judged by ideas, we have been on the winning side.' In other words: great idea, the only drawback was that it was a failure. But Maggie fell for it. That and privatisation, the cute idea of selling people something they already owned.

[jno]

oh, just to tie that into the question: Pinochet's men were big-time monetarists too.

[Loosehead]

So the Falklands was caused by Maggie then eh Bigmalc, just another myth from the left. Funny that I thought a mIlitary Junta on it's last legs trying to save itself from an innevitable Coup from it's own side started it as a way to save itself silly me.

Ok lets have the Belgrano mob, come on you know you're itching to have a go. Yeah bloody warship sunk in war how strange is that?

Anyway malc I'm so glad as an Argentine, you have forgiven and forgotten, or are you actually in Argentina? hard to tell with the web I suppose. Oh and the Falklands where there before Argentina was even a nation but I guess you didn't know that. tut tut!