Anti terrorism 'stop and quiz'

[ludwig]

The government's considering giving stop and quiz powers to the police in order to help the fight against terrorism.
I find this quite worrying and think it would probably end up being counter productive. What do you think?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6695685.stm

[craigiep]

sp1814 your response plumbs new depths of patheticness (if there is such a word). Terrorist atrocities across the globe are committed by young Muslim men so, in an attempt to seek out the perpetrators, police focus their investigations on young Muslim men - anyone in their right man can see that is the most sensible course of action. Yet you not only see that as creating a racial divide, you believe it will alienate disaffected Muslims. Well that just goes to show how utterly unhinged your community is - that simply being stopped and searched in the interest of national security could turn you against British authority. The problems come from within your community and your community winges that it is being victimised for that. Get a grip, get real, get things in perspective, get your community's house in order, or get out of here and go live somewhere else where you can enjoy living in constant danger because of your OTT volatility.

[sp1814]

craigiep

Eh?

You wrote:

Well that just goes to show how utterly unhinged your community is

But I'm not Muslim!

In fact, being gay, I'd probably be the last to be accepted into the Muslim community (together with C of E, Catholics, Hindu, Kabbalists - you name it...)

My point is - stop and search ain't gonna work. 27 arrests out of 22,000 stops under current legislation?

Nah...c'mon - the figures speak for themnselves.

You're a bloke right?

Overwhelmingly, paedos who abduct kids are blokes yeah?

Well, say if you visited your local shopping centre every week and were stopped every time by police who wanted to question you because you 'fitted the profile of a kiddy-fiddler'?

It's easy to support laws that don't affect you...and unless your a young Asian man between 18 and 35, it won't.

Oh, and another thing - seeing as police can't tell the difference between electricians from South America and Muslim terrorists, how are they supposed to be able to tell who is Muslim and (say) Hindu?

It's a nonsense proposal with not a shred of merit.

It will not work.

[craigiep]

I know plenty of Asian men who are never stopped and searched. If that keeps happening to you, perhaps you should consider what else about your appearance (other than the fact that you are Asian) draws the police towards you.

[sp1814]

craigep

I've never been stopped and searched.

And I'm not Asian.

If the bill is introduced, it won't immediately affect me, but it will eventually, because the slow eradication of civil liberties willn affect all of us.

Laws such as these are rarely ever reversed. We will all be affected.

[admarlow]

Sp you said that 27 arrests have come out of x many 0000 stop and searchs (im not going to start doing that petty copy and paste italic thing some of you are so fond of) well then that means potenially 27 July 7's have been overted and therefore potentially hundreds of innocent lives saved, well id say that , that is a small price to pay, and who cares if a few thugs in Southall, Finsbury Park or Oldham don't like it?

[sp1814]

27 arrests not convictions. This was the figure given on News At Ten on Monday.

An arrest is no guarantee of guilt.

Yes, I agree that potential terrorists should be thwarted, but to assume the deaths of hundreds, or even thousands based on these arrests would be dangerously close to the 'Minority Report' attitude to 'future-crime'.

[NikkiB]

SP, when there's been any kind of crime, men are the most likely suspects. I don't recall any male being alienated against society the last time the police did an en masse stop and search in our area because of an alleged sexual offence. The only males likely to get shirty about being stopped in those circumstances are those who are guilty of the offence or those who harbour ideas about committing such an offence or those who don't feel that sexual assaults are crimes. You will not get decent innocent men being turned against Britain. This is the same situation for a non-emotive case, such as robbery. Men may snigger or moan or scowl about being questioned in the street or in the pub but that's more about getting one over on the rozzers. Yet most of them shrug the incident off. They may not be the greatest fans of the police themselves but ultimately, there's no rejection of Britain.

[sp1814]

NikkiB

I say this from a positon of seeing how the black communities in various parts of London where I grew up reacted to the sus laws of the late 70s/early 80s.

It was a complete disaster for community relations, and didn't have the desired effect of reducing crime.

I checked out the crime stats specifically for street crime and burglaries for Lambeth and Southwark for the period covering the sus laws and it made not a jot of difference, but it soured relations between those communities and the police to this day.

If you have the police repeatedly stopping you and you've done nothing, and they don't stop (say) your white mates...it sends a message.

Let me just reiterate - I was never once stopped by a copper. Not even once.

Made me feel rather rejected actually...

[NJOK]

Incidentally, the 'shoe bomber' Richard Reid doesn't look remotely Asian, Arabic or Muslim.

He's half white English and half Jamaican.

So not all terrorists look the same.

[Reverandfunk]

Bottom line:

If you have nothing to hide how on earth could this be a problem???

Ooohhhh CCTV is an invasion of my privacy, ooohhhh those nasty ID cards. If CCTV was pointing into your house I could understand it but how does it invade your privacy on the street???

Erosion of our civil liberties my ar5e. Try telling that to people who live in high crime areas. Police should have more powers to Police effectively and by the way I'm 38, keep within the law so what do I have to fear???

NOTHING.

[sp1814]

Reverandfunk

That's exactly the point!

If you have nothing to hide, how dare anyone keep stopping you because you 'fit the profile' of a potential terrorist.

It's just insulting.

If you were a male, between the ages of 20 and 45 and were continually stopped by the police because you fit the profile of the average kiddy fiddler, wouldn't you feel annoyed?

If it happened once, okay, you might brush it off...but if laws were passed which meant that every time you went out, you could be stopped, embarrassed and sent on your way, how would you feel?

[chompu]

Some of the later postings keep refering to 'stop and search' when the original question was about a proposed 'stop and quiz' power. Enshrined in common law in this country is the duty and responsibility of every citizen to assist in the detection and prevention of crime.Many of the posters on here are the type of person who want the police to detect and protect them from bombers etc. but do so with one hand tied behind their back. Police powers have been eroded, alongside others in authority eg teachers, in the last 30 or so years. It's obvious that given the background of the perpetrators, they are the persons likely to be checked. The Irish when the IRA were active, for instance. Young black males regarding steet robberies, when 90% of victims described them as such.(bearing in mind that not all victims were white.) 'Scrapping the sus law made not a jot of difference'? No, coupled with a p.c. softly softly approach we now have an unprecedented wave of shootings and stabbings among the black youth.There's progress for you. Only 27 arrests out of 22000 stops. Unfortunately much police work is like that. Routine and soul destoying with little sucess. A murder enquiry for example will generate thousands of lines of enquiry, most of which will prove fruitless.Maybe if muslims resent being stopped they will direct their resentment towards those amongs them causing it , rather than the authorities.
Chompu (Police officer 1966-1996 and proud of it)

[Reverandfunk]

Fact is though I DONT fit the profile of a terrorist, kiddie fiddler etc etc so I have nothing to worry about.

What is the profile of a kiddie fiddler? Or a terrorist?

What are the chances of me getting stopped by the old bill more than twice?

Well put it this way I'm 38 and have never been arrested yet so I think it's safe to say I'm not going to be questioned on numerous occassions whilst walking down the street.

I still find it hard to work out how a Police officer saying excuse me Sir whats your name, where are you going, do you mind if I search you is an invasion of my liberties.

Oh hang on a minute isn't that exactly what Customs officials do at airports? Search your bags, ask where you are going?

I get searched when I entered a football ground/pop concert so basically talk of invasions of privacy is complete and utter rubbish.

[Reverandfunk]

Top post Chompu

[sp1814]

Reverandfunk

Don't you think there's a world of difference between going through airport security, where there is a direct link to public safety and someone crossing the road on a Saturday afternoon outside Woolies?

Exactly what suspicions will the police be usings to stop people?

Actually, let's be honest - it will be used to target certain sections of the public, where others simply won't be touched...those who are repeatedly stopped (young Asian men and young black men) will increasingly think "**** you for assuming I'm dodgy just because of my racial background".

Remember, the police HAVE the powers to stop people acting suspiciously and can arrest someone if they refuse to give their details.

Did you know that not a single Chief Constable has called for an expansion of their current powers.

Now, if the cops themselves are happy with their current powers, who are we to tell them their job?

What we should do is be honest and create a new crime, "Guilty of being non-white in a public place". Seriously - that's what these nonsense proposals amount to.

[sp1814]

Incidentally, please don't think I've got a chip on my shoulder about this - as I've posted before, this won't affect me. I'm 40 and am usually to be found in a suit and tie.

Profile-wise, I doubt whether I'll ever be 'stopped and quizzed'.

However, I still think that as an idea, it sucks more than a skipful of vacuum cleaners.

[Kromovaracun]

Enshrined in common law in this country is the duty and responsibility of every citizen to assist in the detection and prevention of crime

'Common Law' (rather ironically) refers in the constitutional context to the practice of a fair trial and the presumption of innocence 'til guilt is proven. It's part of the constitution.

Many of the posters on here are the type of person who want the police to detect and protect them from bombers etc. but do so with one hand tied behind their back.

I've yet to see any evidence that the extended police powers have gotten any more results regarding actually prosecuting terrorists. In fact, the work done by the police which has thwarted terrorist attacks has had absolutely nothing to do with their new powers.

Police powers have been eroded, alongside others in authority eg teachers, in the last 30 or so years

Nonsense. The two are completely unrelated. In fact, police powers have been anything but eroded in the last 30 years - they've been strenghtened (as sp1814's example of the 'sus laws' shows - or Major's removal of the right to silence).

Maybe if muslims resent being stopped they will direct their resentment towards those amongs them causing it , rather than the authorities.

Maybe if the authorities weren't repeatedly questioning them with little basis other than their appearance or religion and actually tried to attain their help, they'd feel more co-operative.

For my next post, onto Reverandfunk....

[Kromovaracun]

If you have nothing to hide how on earth could this be a problem???

Because you're being questioned for no reason other than you 'look like a terrorist'. Or share the same religion. You wouldn't find that a problem? Well, bully for you.

What is the profile of a kiddie fiddler? Or a terrorist?

An excellent question. Why don't you ask the police? That's the basis they usually operate on when exercising the new powers.

still find it hard to work out how a Police officer saying excuse me Sir whats your name, where are you going, do you mind if I search you

Would that the police (or people generally) were that civil to everyone. It would likely solve a lot of problems. But they're not (though to be fair that's rather a generalisation).

Oh hang on a minute isn't that exactly what Customs officials do at airports? Search your bags, ask where you are going?

They search your bags if they set something off - so they'll do that on far more than (and regardless of) someone's ethnicity. They don't usually ask where you're going (unless of course they're making conversation).

[chompu]

Kromovaracun, How good of you to point out the faults with many of my points in my above posting. Of course you wouldn't expect someone who has spent 30 years in the police service to know anything about the law. I feel obliged to return the compliment.
Common law- Is about so much more than rights to a fair trial. It encompasses so many different areas. It is generally about laws which have not been made by statute of parliament but have been passed down through tradition and the rulings of court. The most well known of these is the charge of murder.I suggest if you want to know more you google it. By the way we don't have a written constitution in this country.
If you are going to declare that what I have said is nonsense i.e. erosion of police powers then please back it up with a valid argument. You cite sps' example of the sus laws being an excessive police power. They were abolished in the 1980s. The right to silence has never been abolished in this country by John Major or anyone else. They're one of your common law rights which were confirmed in statute in the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984.
You state that extra powers given to the police have had no effect on the conviction of terrorists. How could you or anyone else possibly know this. They are not going to publicise what actions they're taking in a covert operation. However some idea may be apparent if someone is brought to trial, for instance the recent 'fertiliser bomb' trial in which it was obvious much use had been made of phone tapping.
I think over the past few years many appeals have been made to moderate muslims for help in identifying would be suspects but not much seems to be forthcoming. I would concede, however, that this is another area where the police woud be reluctant to publicise in view of the safety of informants.
In conclusion, I would check your facts before you relpy in a supercilious and patronising manner