'The Good old Days...'

[Kromovaracun]

I've been tossing this around in my head for a while, and I just can't work it out.

The question is, what exact time are people referring to when they harp on about everything being better in 'the good old days'? Seeing as fair few of such folk frequent AB, I thought I'd extend the question.

Be warned, though, I am shamelessly spoilng for an argument and will pounce upon any and all responses like a frenzied rabbit...

[naomi24]

....cont

I am an ex-Labour voter, and I still hold basically socialist principles, but I will never vote New Labour again because I am honest enough to admit to what's happening here, and to admit I was wrong. This is not a Labour government, I don't believe it has Britain's best interests at heart, and it has fallen woefully below my expectations. I had hoped that the country would see a modicum of commonsense once Labour came to power, but where is it? Lies, stealth taxes, sleeze and interference into every aspect of our personal lives is all this government's good at. Apart from all that, my main bugbear is my experience of the NHS (once the envy of the world) under this government - and that's enough to tell me that New Labour isn't fit for office. Things certainly ain't what they used to be, despite what New Labour's supporters want to believe.

[123everton]

But Naomi where do you begin?
I agree that I'd of liked them to do more, but take the N.H.S. I've got some experience here the N.H.S. has improved immeasurably under Labour as compared to the previous administration, I've spent 3 hours (more) in casualty, it's alot less now, waiting lists are shorter and I can get an appointment in the doctors within 24 hours (often the same day).
Look at private housing the government allowed an all manner of shenanigans by the lenders such as endowment mortgages, look at pensions the Tories told hundreds and thousands of people to abandon their final salary company schemes to go into private money purchase plans they had James Goldsmith and Tiny Rowland as their benefactors who stripped pension schemes and stripped the assets of the companies they bought, the pension holidays began under them due to their surpluses.
Lies, stealth taxes and sleaze are sadly part and parcel of politics always has been. Lloyd George was an adulterer, Gladstone (possibly) had thing for prostitutes, stealth taxes were news under the Tories "taxing consumption" was the soundbite of the time,as for the lies there's an old saying "an honest man can enter politics, but never leave as one."
I'm disappointed to hear you say that cheap foreign labour is coming over here taking our jobs I did'nt think someone like yourself would invoke Enoch Powell's ghost.

[naomi24]

123 You say the NHS has improved, but we've already been down this road. Hospitals are obliged to manipulate figures in order to achieve government targets - and although the government is fully aware of that, they still blow their trumpet and tell us how wonderful everything is - and that is tantamount to lying. If the NHS has improved, why are so many people contracting infections in hospital? Just this weekend I read of two young women dying of hospital acquired infections in a maternity unit. In a civilised country, that shouldn't happen. You may well get an appointment to see your GP quickly, but it's all about figures, isn't it? You see your GP, and if you're very lucky, you may get an appointment to see a hospital consultant within a month or so, so ok, you're another tick off the list. However, getting your operation is another matter. I've had considerable experience of hospitals over many years, and in particular over the past two years. I've spoken in depth to eminent surgeons and to nursing staff about this government, and the general opinion would seem to be that the NHS is a shambles - and it isn't the fault of the medical professionals. They're working their socks off to try to cope.

It's not a case of wanting this government to do more, but what I would like to see someone with a bit of common sense look squarely and honestly at the issues and to try to resolve them. Instead of that all we get is more and more manipulation of statistics and more trumpet blowing.

You are still harping on about the mistakes of previous governments. Why? This is hardly a new government, is it?

cont....

[naomi24]

....cont

Accusing me of invoking Enoch Powell's ghost really is contemptible and I would have hoped that resorting to playing the race card was beneath you. I didn't say that cheap foreign labour was coming over here to take our jobs, so please don't put words into my mouth. If speaking the truth, albeit unsavoury to you, results in insults, then perhaps this conversation has gone far enough.

[123everton]

"Cheap labour from foreign sources, so is the ordinary working man any better off?" Naomi that's what you said, I may have paraphrased it but Nick Griffin, Enoch Powell or Oswald Mosley could'nt have put it any better themselves, I was amazed to hear you say it. Foreign labour (Polish and Estonian) are doing work alongside me so long as they can do the job I've no quarrel. They're not taking anyone elses job because no-one else wants to do it, I see these people (foreigners) day in day out going to the temp agency (some of them slips of girls barely 21) at five or six in the morning, in all weathers going to work. I respect that.
I don't speak to administrators etc. I go to hospital, when I was younger going to hospital was a nightmare I used to attend a doctors clinic and a fracture clinic in walton hospital (before it closed) I'd arrive at 0900 and leave at 1300 (if I was lucky). My father goes into hospital tomorrow he got a date cancelled and then he cancelled the next 1 (because his Mrs. had a bunion operation, on schedule) got another date within 3 weeks.
We've already covered the privatisation of hospital cleaning but I dare say the lawyers that were employed to do it have made it very costly to bring cleaning back under hospital control which is why it has'nt happened, although I wish it would. My cousin is a hospital cleaner and I'm fully aware of of the measures to prevent infection but open visiting hours, unrestricted visitor numbers (sitting on the beds) don't help. The main problem with the N.H.S. is too many managers brought about by the reforms of competing for patients, now who did that...
Rome was'nt built in a day.

[123everton]

Continued.
Whenever I ring my doctor I get an appointment within 24 hours (used to be 3 or 4 days)usually the same day if I ring early enough.
It's not a matter of harping on, who do you compare this government with to act as a barometer?
Things have improved in the health service but like most things it had a very low starting point.
The good old days for me (under the tories) involved mass redundancies, teachers strikes, miners strikes, school closures (mine), selling off school fields (mine again), hospital closures, A&E closures it was never ending.
The housing crisis (entirely another post) is borne directly from the sale of council housing and (yes) partly from imigration, but most imigrants are from the E.U, alot work in the N.H.S. from outside the E.U (it could'nt function without them, as I'm sure you know). When I was younger thousands of men worked in Germany on building sites, in the north we virtually all had family members or friends over there.
I'm sorry but I disagree with the thrust of what you're saying, things are'nt great (they could be better) but I'm more optimistic for the future with this shower of lawyers, than I am with the other shower of lawyers.

[naomi24]

123 I know precisely what I said, but it seems that, since you're so very eager to point the finger by jumping on the racist bandwagon, you don't. Ever heard of call centres being moved abroad, or of manufacturing being outsourced abroad because labour is cheaper there? The outcome of that means fewer jobs for the ordinary worker in Britain - of whatever race, colour or creed. There's a world of difference between saying that cheap labour from foreign sources is being used, and saying that foreign labour is coming over here to take our jobs, and your contention that I said anything resembling that, or that my politics in any way resemble those of the people you mentioned is an insult. Since you clearly do not understand what I'm saying, this conversation really has gone far enough. May I suggest that before you throw unfounded accusations in future, you think carefully before you speak.

[123everton]

I'm happy that you've clarified what you meant, your explaination makes sense especially with consideration to your other posts (hence my surprise) but the exporting of jobs abroad (call centres aside) was part and parcel of (I know you hate to be reminded) of the previous governments policy of destroying manufacturing and making it easier (and cheaper) to get rid of staff here than it is on the continent. Offshore call centres are I understand in decline because the customers don't like it.
I'm sorry for the misunderstanding earlier but you must be able to see the ambiguity in the staement.

[naomi24]

No, I can't see the ambiguity of the statement. I said what I meant, but your eagerness to point the finger meant that you were all too ready to read something entirely different into it. I don't 'hate to be reminded' of the previous government's mistakes, and if you had understood my posts (which you clearly haven't) you would know that I never voted for them and I wasn't happy with what they did. However, I do find your continued willingness to excuse this government's failings by holding a previous goverment responsible rather ridiculous - and you're still doing it. They've had years to make changes - they haven't done it - they have no excuse - and they must be held accountable.

No doubt we'll meet on another thread at another time.

[123everton]

Other posters have alluded to immigration (immigration is THE issue in the news) as being the cause of the problems today, until your post no-one had mentioned the export of jobs.
The merchant navy has been given over to flags of convenience a long long time ago crewed by Filipinos Vietnamese and Indonesians, ship building takes place in Korea Taiwan and Italy (cruise ships) heavy industry went abroad a long long time ago the actual issue of large scale job losses to places abroad is really outdated, it's an old topic it was all done and dusted 25 years ago there's only call centres left and thta's now being reversed. (I did express surprise at your sentiment) if you'd have clarified it sooner I'd have apologised quicker.
But given we no longer have an industrial base, given that we have lackse employment laws (needs to be changed, agreed?) all these thing were'nt brought in by Labour, but they sadly have'nt been reversed by them.
It's a fact that more money than ever is being spent on the N.H.S. and it is getting better and on the point of infections if we're talking about the same case then I read in The Sunday People that they "did'nt die of a hospital acquired infection but they were monitoring the wards as a precaution" although that offers cold comfort to the families concerned.
I feel politically we're pretty similar (and I don't think I was quick to point the race card, again I did express my surprise) but I see an awful lot heat and very little light in what you propose for the future, which bunch of lawyers are you going to vote for?
B.T.P. the good old days seem to be when you're young, I grew up at a time of great upheaval but still...
As Gladys Knight said "as difficult as we think they are, these will be the good old days for our children"

[Quinlad]

The NHS has more, doctors, more nurses and vastly reduced waiting lists. Don't let nostalgia blind you. Think back. 18 month waiting lists were by no means uncommon in the early 90s and they've been absolutely slashed. That is fact.

The NHS isn't perfect. In fact, it's riddled with problems, but why is that a surprise? It's a mammoth institution. Get used to the fact that it will always been saddled with problems. And if you're voting for a party because you expect them to come in and make it all better, you're deluding yourself.

The people who seem most upset at New Labour are often the ones who, like Naomi, were dancing with joy when they were elected. Why were they dancing? What exactly were they expecting? What in the history of Western politics had led them to believe that a new government would suddenly make us all happy and content?

[Quinlad]

It's very easy for us to complain that Britain is a worse place to be than pre-New Labour. Try telling that to the people who really need the government. Not people like you and me who can sit here typing on web site. Not people who have thousands in an nice ISA. Not people who have to save a bit harder to buy a house.

But people who have two or three jobs just to get by. People struggling to get work while looking after kids on their own. People who have to save up to buy their children school books or pay for the school bus. People who had previously been

Britain would not have the minimum wage if the Tories had stayed in power. That is a fact. Most of us don't think much about that because it doesn't affect us. But these are people who were being screwed before.

And that is just the tip of the ice berg. I could list a dozen policies that New Labour has brought in that make a colossal difference to these people's lives that the Tories not only wouldn't have brought in, but would actually get rid of at the first opportunity. And you know what, most of us have never even heard of them. Why would we? We're alright.

And can we change the record about stabbings? It's scary and on the increase but I seem to remember two full decades of football hooligans smashing up town centres, killing foreign supporters and making city centres a no-go area for kids on match days. Ah, the good old days.

[naomi24]

Quinlad, You've chosen a bad subject. I've been a single parent - and I coped without claiming benefits or asking society to keep me or to help me - and without feeling sorry for myself. I worked damned hard, and juggled hours to fit - and all before New Labour, so please don't preach to me about people who have to do these things. I know exactly what it's like.

Football hooligans are a disgrace, but that doesn't excuse what's happening now, does it? Town centres are no go areas not just on match days, but every evening, and young people are stabbing and shooting each other without even a football match for an excuse. Why is it that whenever there's a problem that needs to be addressed, people like you and 123 don't offer a reason, or a possible solution, but simply say "Ah yes, but look what used to happen", as though that somehow negates the current problem?

As for the NHS, tell my 45 year old sportsman husband how wonderful it is now. He caught MRSA during a minor operation - and because of that, underwent several very major operations over the course of a year, and is now left with a disability that has blighted his life forever. And all for the want of some disinfectant and some properly trained cleaners - and how much has all this cost the NHS? Thousands and thousands of pounds. And how many more are there just like him? Our local A&E unit is huge, and is open 24 hours. It employs one cleaner, who works an eight-hour day and obviously finds it impossible to do the job properly. However, the hospital does have a plethora of office staff. Certainly got their priorities right, haven't they? That's the sense of New Labour. They're throwing millions at the NHS, but cutting costs in the most essential places - and at what cost? What false economy. As the old saying goes, they know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

....cont

[naomi24]

cont....

And before you tell me that visitors bring infections into hospitals, as 123 did, don't bother, because it simply isn't true. I've spoken to eminent health professionals in hospitals, I have friends and family who are health professionals, and every single one of them agrees that our hospitals are filthy, and bad hygiene is the cause of the infections. If you'd care to check out infection rates in private hospitals against NHS hospitals you'll find there's a vast difference - but then perhaps the visitors to private hospitals bathe more often, eh?

You say we're all right so we don't think about things. Yes, I am all right, but you're wrong because I do think about things. You asked why I was dancing for joy when New Labour triumphed. I was delighted when they won because with the Tories, amongst other things, we had interest rates of 15% and houses were being repossessed, they sold off council houses, and they sold off the utilities - none of which I've ever agreed with. However, as I said before, house repossession isn't an issue for young people now, because they can't even get one foot on the first rung of the housing ladder. I thought the Tories were bad, but this country has never been in the state it's in now - and it's all due to wonderful New Labour.

[jno]

I have to say, 123, I can't see a GP in less than a week now. The government poured money into the NHS but it all went straight into doctors' pockets rather than patient services. And I'm in a respectable area that doctor-type people ought to want to service.

[123everton]

I never used to see nurses going to work in their uniforms, that can't be hygenic, visiting times used to be set and rightly so (it's a place of business), people doing different things all over carry different germs, the answer is to do away with private cleaning contracts and bring it back under the hospital's control. The way I understand it the government gives the money to the health authorities and they then spend it, I'd like to see far fewer administrators and more cleaners, I can only tell you that everyone I know in the last 10 years has had nothing but praise for the service they've recieved I've got a friend insulin dependant diabetic first class all the way (always was to be fair pre-Labour), I've known several friends from work had heart attacks again first class service all the way, one of my friends his daughter was nearly murdered by her boyfriend and needed a liver transplant first class treatment all the way. I can only repeat what I know from my own personal experience, at the age of 36 I've had 20 surgical proceedures (11 skin grafts) and innumerable visits to casualty in between (no not when drunk) the N.H.S. has improved drastically in my eyes, there's still alot of room for improvement, but from such a low starting point what do you expect.
Crime on the other hand is a far more fertile ground, that's getting worse, the Police are just as lazy, useless and invisible now as they ever were. The level of casual violence is far higher, I'm having fewer arguments with the public than I used to have but they seem to be getting more violent (a good friend of mine had a gun pulled on him the other week) knife crime is getting worse, and all over the place little odd mark firms are turning up.
I think that was going to happen anyway, but serious action needs to be taken about urgently. Too many people are dying. You're putting words in my mouth now I fear.

[123everton]

21 surgical proceedures I had cyst removed off my eye on budget day 2000, within 6 weeks of seeing my own doctor.
Do you think it'd be easier working as a single parent now as opposed to 15 years ago?
I see alot of new school buildings and sports centres, and stadia (I'm not too sure about P.F.I though) all my schools were dilipadated.
You could afford to buy a house back then, you just could'nt afford to keep it. I know, I bought my first house 1992 (aged 21) I had to work 15 eight hour days just to pay the mortgage (barely) if I had a fiver at the end of a 54 hour week I was chuffed.
I also remember when the E.R.M went t1ts up and interest rates soared I had no more economies to make, I'd sold the car, stayed in, went to bed early, no dessert, no holidays, no new clothes, no sky T.V, I sat on the couch with my head in my hands and for the first time in my life contemplated the idea that I could become homeless.
I don't want to harp on about the Tory government, but that sort of experience leaves a mark, I would never see myself in that position again I swore down.

[Kromovaracun]

I'll join the fray a bit later on (I have to go to college in a few minutes and I want to take up some stats)

I will take issue with one thing jno said:

The government poured money into the NHS but it all went straight into doctors' pockets rather than patient services.

Not quite. It went into a half-baked database choice-based proposal that didn't work. Lamentable, but it didn't go 'straight into doctors' pockets',

[Quinlad]

Well, let's go with your personal anecdote then. Stuff the stats about the NHS. Naomi's hubby had a bad time of it so it must be on the slide.

And please tell me you're joking when you're attempting to equate yourself - a one-time single mother but one that is clearly eduacted and middle class - with the unqualified, poverty-stricken benefits-receivers who make use of the Sure Start scheme, or who rely on New Deal to get back to work. Or who cling onto the Decent Homes intiative which ensures their council houses are fit to inhabit. Are you suggesting that schemes that help the very poor in Britain should be scrapped because people just need to work harder and stop moaning?

I wonder if these people share your fixation with homeownership, as a yardstick of government?

Why the hell did you ever vote Labour? You sound more like Norman Tebbit in a dress.

[123everton]

I thought this was about the good old days, not a p1ssing fight as to who's suffered the most! :-)
We've all got tales of woe we can tell.
Further to the hospitals section of the debate a very good friend of mine was involved in a very serious crash (made the local papers) and was in a coma for weeks (he nearly died) the treatment he recieved? First class all the way, he's on the mend now (as I hope your husband is) another good friend, her sister died of cancer last year (tragically young) but again first class treatment all the way. In the last 10 years I can't think of anyone I know who's had a bad experience on the N.H.S.
Some of the initiatives quinlad talks about are news to me (and others I don't know what they entail) but they all sound praise worthy and if nothing else, a start...
Again I see alot of heat and very little light which shower of lawyers are you going to vote for? Because to me Labour, for all it's faults, are the closest thing to my political values and until that changes I'll stick with them. Cameron (never!) I listen to him and his ideas just more wind and p1ss to stuff the wallets of the super rich. What we need is politicians who have come up from nothing, not middle class kids who studied poiltics in school. These people (on all sides) read about poverty, whilst we live through it, they hear about crime, whilst we suffer it, they talk about the health service, whilst we use it. If all you do is look for faults then ask a manager they'll tell you where all the problems are, and always always never their fault. I have a worked for countless young Turks all going to reinvent the wheel, all of them useless (but at laest they could get sacked). To paraphrase Shakespeare first we'll get rid of the bosses (oh go on and the lawyers too!)
Rome was'nt built in a day.