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Nice to be called a 'Simpleton' flip flop! I was answering truthfully a question that admarlow put to me. And who on this thread has said that they want any of the police 'hounded' and would like a 'witch hunt'. Perhaps I have missed these comments! I still believe the police have to be accountable for what happened and that the ultimate responsibility is with the most senior member on that operation.
The operation was a disaster and what's more the police tried to cover up there mistakes with lies.
Anyway no more 'ridiculous' suggestions from a simpleton. I am glad most of us see eye to eye on this thread.
The operation was a disaster and what's more the police tried to cover up there mistakes with lies.
Anyway no more 'ridiculous' suggestions from a simpleton. I am glad most of us see eye to eye on this thread.
Further to my previous comments - someone mentioned 'why wait until he was on a train before shooting him?'. These were my initial sentiments too.
The police followed Menezes all the way from his accomodation to the station, then chased him from the platform & onto the train.
Why didn't they stop him in the street beforehand?
The police followed Menezes all the way from his accomodation to the station, then chased him from the platform & onto the train.
Why didn't they stop him in the street beforehand?
OK, fair enough, have re-read the thread and nobody has actually said the officers on the ground should be imprisoned. HOWEVER, an inference of blame to the officers on the ground can, the way I read them, be found in;
Lofty lottie - 11.01
Quinlad - 11.14
Monkeyes - 11.17
Monkeyes - 12.31
Quinlad - 12.59
jno - 14.04
Monkeyes - 17.16
Steve.5 - 17.19
Loft Lottie, you first brought up family in your post of 10.50.
Lofty lottie - 11.01
Quinlad - 11.14
Monkeyes - 11.17
Monkeyes - 12.31
Quinlad - 12.59
jno - 14.04
Monkeyes - 17.16
Steve.5 - 17.19
Loft Lottie, you first brought up family in your post of 10.50.
That should read "lofty lottie, you were the first one to bring up family in your post of 10.50".
I apologise for the simpleton remark - but I don't think in a situation like this asking whether it was a family member is at all helpful.
We need to remain as objective as we can - bringing in family inevitably makes it subjective and is, in my opinion, a ridiculous argument.
I apologise for the simpleton remark - but I don't think in a situation like this asking whether it was a family member is at all helpful.
We need to remain as objective as we can - bringing in family inevitably makes it subjective and is, in my opinion, a ridiculous argument.
Sorry!
That was one of flip flop's posts I was going to comment on. It speaks for itself and the disregard he has for the loss of this life.
However,
Flip flop you talk of witch hunts and hounding which noone ever suggested. Yes, I believe it was a botched operation based on suppositions and to make it worse lies were told as a cover up. Therefore, someone at the top needs to take the blame. Lies, especially from the top, are inexcusable and for that reason alone the people responsible need to be removed from their positons.
I have never blamed the officers on the ground. In fact, if you read my reply to ad more thoroughly you will see that I admit I would have acted in the same way under the directions of my seniors.
Flip flop, in all honestly tell me if it had been a son of yours that was killed in similar circumstances would you have posted your question? The family, at the very least deserve this hearing and so do the general public.
By the way, I have just seen that you have also referred to myself and perhaps others as 'utter cretins'. Because people disagree with you is it really necessary to call them names and get so nasty - it doesn't actually help you to put your argument over to us!
That was one of flip flop's posts I was going to comment on. It speaks for itself and the disregard he has for the loss of this life.
However,
Flip flop you talk of witch hunts and hounding which noone ever suggested. Yes, I believe it was a botched operation based on suppositions and to make it worse lies were told as a cover up. Therefore, someone at the top needs to take the blame. Lies, especially from the top, are inexcusable and for that reason alone the people responsible need to be removed from their positons.
I have never blamed the officers on the ground. In fact, if you read my reply to ad more thoroughly you will see that I admit I would have acted in the same way under the directions of my seniors.
Flip flop, in all honestly tell me if it had been a son of yours that was killed in similar circumstances would you have posted your question? The family, at the very least deserve this hearing and so do the general public.
By the way, I have just seen that you have also referred to myself and perhaps others as 'utter cretins'. Because people disagree with you is it really necessary to call them names and get so nasty - it doesn't actually help you to put your argument over to us!
-- answer removed --
If you're interested in any of my posts flip_flop, particularly the last two - thought I'd just add this:
Times Online - 20.09.08
As the family talk about the case, it is clear that the hurt and anger are as raw as ever. His mother keeps asking the same questions - ones she now hopes the police will answer: Why didn�t they arrest Jean Charles? Or handcuff him? Why did they shoot her son?
�Nothing can cover the loss of this boy,� she says
Times Online - 20.09.08
As the family talk about the case, it is clear that the hurt and anger are as raw as ever. His mother keeps asking the same questions - ones she now hopes the police will answer: Why didn�t they arrest Jean Charles? Or handcuff him? Why did they shoot her son?
�Nothing can cover the loss of this boy,� she says
Wow, flip_flop.
Just re-read the post of mine you picked out. I can't see what's controversial about suggesting questions should be asked about what went wrong, rather than shrugging and brushing it under the carpet. They're the police, not the stasi.
If you take a public inquiry as an attack on the police, then I find that slightly weird.
To clarify, though, here's where I'm at. It's been suggested that the people to blame (if any) are the senior officers who provided the intelligence, rather than the officers who fired the shots. That may well be true.
It might also be true that it was entirely the fault of the officers who did the shooting - for all we know, one of them could have gone mental and lost his cool, firing a shot and provoking his colleagues into doing the same. It might come down to a few of them being grossly unprofessional.
I very much doubt that. But that's what the inquiry is for. If the police did nothing wrong, they'll be absolved. I'm not pre-judging them. The only person doing that, flip_flop is you - demanding a verdict of accidental death because it's mean of us to put the poor policemen through a proper inquiry.
Just re-read the post of mine you picked out. I can't see what's controversial about suggesting questions should be asked about what went wrong, rather than shrugging and brushing it under the carpet. They're the police, not the stasi.
If you take a public inquiry as an attack on the police, then I find that slightly weird.
To clarify, though, here's where I'm at. It's been suggested that the people to blame (if any) are the senior officers who provided the intelligence, rather than the officers who fired the shots. That may well be true.
It might also be true that it was entirely the fault of the officers who did the shooting - for all we know, one of them could have gone mental and lost his cool, firing a shot and provoking his colleagues into doing the same. It might come down to a few of them being grossly unprofessional.
I very much doubt that. But that's what the inquiry is for. If the police did nothing wrong, they'll be absolved. I'm not pre-judging them. The only person doing that, flip_flop is you - demanding a verdict of accidental death because it's mean of us to put the poor policemen through a proper inquiry.
JC was told to stop but fled into train.
If you caught a 7/7 assassin, knowing what you now know, would you stop at one shot, feel for a pulse, then another etc. We are all emotional and emotions raised over 9/11 & 7/7 are still reverberating thru us. Hence the bitterness of moslems & others today.
(Radical moslems must also be aware they continually threaten 'everyone' else, en masse......hence everyone else hits back).
If you caught a 7/7 assassin, knowing what you now know, would you stop at one shot, feel for a pulse, then another etc. We are all emotional and emotions raised over 9/11 & 7/7 are still reverberating thru us. Hence the bitterness of moslems & others today.
(Radical moslems must also be aware they continually threaten 'everyone' else, en masse......hence everyone else hits back).
Incidentally, take a look at the route from Menezes' accommodation to the station platform. The police had more than enough time to stop him beforehand - along with their expertise!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7636798.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7636798.stm
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